This thread doesn't concern the player's page, it's only here due to it being the only Time Trial-related forum. All of the times mentioned below are not on the Player's Page and violate the Player's Page ruleset.

Read the post below before replying.


OK, after some thought and anger put into this topic and realising how bad and disorganised the TT community was just over a year ago, I want to get this done. The community has been fighting over the my stuff runs ever since Hibiki and nobody is actually trying to make any decisions. I'm gonna present the cases to the best of my ability and we're going to have polls based on what is brought up in the conversation and finally be done with this absolute shit show.



1. Hibiki/Jan

The most notorious one. Hibiki set a rDKM WR with a text on screen that told him "To save a regular track ghost, please disable my stuff.": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoYKwHH0zHE

The way the community handled this was bad. The WR was added, removed and then re-added. As far as I remember Blaze got a lot of shit for removing this one, and it was eventually added back and we are still talking about this 2 and a half years later. I think Cole's post sums up the decision quite well, however.

MKwrs did not have rules displayed anywhere on the site when the run was set, and neither did the top 10s. The only place with a solid ruleset at the time was the Player's Page's rules, which were not linked on neither MKwrs nor the MKBoards top 10s. Therefore I think the Hibiki case is as much of a moderation mistake than it is Hibiki's stupidity.

The text should have raised about a thousand red flags for him, but to be honest, it was more than likely that he didn't know that he needed a ghost of the run for it to be considered legit. I can understand the frustration from the community's perspective but I'm more disappointed in the utter disorganization of the community back in that time, and largely blame this catastrophy on that.

I don't think it was entirely his fault and imo, the run should be grandfathered in and we should make sure stuff like this never happens again. We have rules on both MKwrs and MKLeaderboards now, there is absolutely no excuse for something like this happening in the future.



2. Fox

The second older case. Fox set a WR and the first sub 2:10 run on BCWii glitch with custom music enabled. The ghost did save and he did not have the text on screen that informed him of turning off My Stuff, due to him running a version of the track without sound triggers.

Fox's post explains his reasons for this. This case is a bit different since he was 100% aware of the fact that his run would likely not be counted due to this and knew about the custom music rule. I think this does put all the blame on him, regardless of it being a mistake or not.

In fact I think this case is much worse than Hibiki's, since Fox deliberately chose not to come forward with this immediately, but only posted about it after the community caught on. He didn't try to hide it or anything, but I think there is a much bigger case to remove this time than Hibiki's case.



3. Mel/Batcake

A newer case. His runs is question were set on TF and WGM.

This case is similar to Fox's case, since the runs were set on no sound triggers (no text at the bottom for my stuff) and the ghosts are available. I'm a bit fuzzy on the background on this, but I know for a fact that, over a year after the Hibiki case, there were still no rules displayed on MKwrs nor MKLeaderboards. I'd be more inclined to delete these runs, since he was definitely aware of the Hibiki and Fox cases and should have known better.

Still, I don't understand how, after over a year after the Hibiki incident there were still no rules on MKwrs or MKL. Since I was an MKL mod at this point, I'm equally disappointed in myself for not ever thinking this was concerning.


4. KasperUS

KasperUS is the only example (as far as I can remember) of a player who's records have actually been rejected due to playing on my stuff (with the text displayed at the bottom). The runs in question are his GV rock hop and TF "PR's". I remember this case vaguely, this is the one that started the discussion about implementing a rules tab on MKL, which now exists (although the CTGP-only rule for high-level times is still missing from there, I have asked the mod to add it as soon as possible.)

Kasper was fully aware that his runs wouldn't count if he used My Stuff, even jokingly mentioning it in the descriptions. These runs should never count in my opinion.



I'm sorry for sounding like an angry toddler in this post, at the end of the day I'm just frustrated at how we're still wondering what to do with these times, years later after they were set. I'd just like a good concrete solution on this and will be making four polls (one for each person) after the discussion dies down.

Please point out bad logic in what I try to argue for, there are likely things that I have missed that would entirely flip my opinion on some of these. Before reading into the Hibiki case a little more I was entirely for removing it from the tops.




Just to repeat myself, new times like these will not be allowed on any major leaderboards in the future. We now have rulesets that make it very clear that runs that like this are no longer accepted. Regardless on what we choose to do with these four cases, any future My Stuff runs will be rejected on the spot.

I'd allow all of them except Kasper's as he did it knowing that he could be playing to save a ghost, the others seem like legitimate accidents

Aaron M wrote on 05/18/20 at 07:07:50:


There is no point in opening up a load of arbitrary cans of worms because some people don’t like the game music. You would be able to disguise an advantageous tool as normal custom music relatively easily.

RosscoXz wrote on 05/18/20 at 07:12:09:


The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.

RosscoXz wrote on 05/18/20 at 07:18:41:


You could argue for blackyboi runs counting based on this though (but I get your point yeah)

Arvo57 wrote on 05/18/20 at 07:21:06:


Well we have reason to believe he cheated his runs, these cases are just based on morals/laziness rather than genuine suspicion. I think all of these players have proved themselves as capable of these times in a legitimate setting


@Aaron my point is that you could be unaware that a player is using mods to their advantage

Aaron M wrote on 05/18/20 at 07:33:20:


Im not saying they are, and I’m certain they’re not but the point is that, in theory, you could.

I strongly support Fox, Hibiki and Batcake’s times being allowed.
Kasper said himself that he didn’t care about ghosts not being saved and joked about it, therefore I don’t think his custom music times should count.

I would suggest that on mkwrs, the player’s page and MKLeaderboards, it should say in the rules that it is highly preferred that you turn mystuff off for Nintendo track tts.

But if people do set times with mystuff it should be on no sound triggers so that there is a ghost for the time.
If people set a large minority or more of their times with mystuff on, I think there is an incentive to deter them from using mystuff on Nintendo tts by disallowing some of those times.

@Vinnie927 Brett did want his pause buffering runs banned though, I assume hibiki would want his DKM time to count

I want to provide more context as to how this situation arose. Basically, we all screwed up here.

The PP was once the center of MKW time trials, since Nintendo's leaderboards were so borked. Because of the PP's influence, everyone knew and followed this site's ruleset, including prohibiting custom music/SZS files.

But starting in 2015, this site started losing its grip on the wider MKW community. MKBoards began adding times by players who "proved themselves legit" after being banned from the PP for submitting illegitimate times.* Now, CTGP's ghost database essentially obsoletes the PP, since it automatically updates its leaderboards without needing players to venture to an external source.

I think a lot of TT vets didn't realize at the time how consequential it was that the TT community was straying away from the PP. In the past, TT leaderboards on other sites simply followed the PP's rules and only added times the PP "declared" legit, but that wasn't the case from 2015-2019. Now MKLeaderboards and MKWRS have essentially adopted the PP's ruleset on custom music, which is a good thing.

I think all four players mentioned above should have those times counted on MKLeaderboard, so long as they were done on CTGP with either custom music or no music, or with tracks replaced with their "no sound triggers" version. If you do that, you must be mentioned that the runs were only grandfathered in despite the current ruleset, not that custom music/no sound triggers is now allowed for TT leaderboards.

Edit: I know there's a counter-argument that any run made with game modifications should not be counted, and that every player should be instinctively aware of that fact. I used to believe that too, but now I don't think it's that obvious. Many Super Mario 64 single-star runs are done using codes/modded roms which can display timers, among other things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjcD0qzkgcw



*As a sidenote, I think the PP over-extended its reach on banning players. Even though the runs Mel/Batcake submitted to the PP in 2014 were suspicious, he was banned for completely unrelated live replay runs never meant for leaderboards. If he isn't already, he should be allowed back on this site. I think Barney was a similar case but I don't remember anymore

Why the hell do people want Hibiki’s run to count if he violates the rules? That makes no sense to me.

If the community decides to remove Hibiki's and Fox's times, I could add another section under "Additional Times" called something like "Modded Track Times", and move those 2 times there. That way there is still a record of the times on the WR site. This could also be used for future times that beat WRs but accidentally/mistakenly use texture/music mods (although hopefully it doesn't happen again).

I don’t get banning custom music. I could just as well plug in headphones and listen to my custom music that way lol. Hell, I know people that turn on metronomes for timing wheelie chains. Should we ban those too?

The only real argument I’ve seen for it’s banning is it’s not vanilla. But the rules effectiveness is so minuscule that I don’t see a point in it even existing.