PLEASE DO NOT VOTE WITHOUT READING BELOW

Posting this thread on behalf of Mr Bean, who had again found another discovery in how the game handles collision. Specifically, what causes the wall riding mechanic that makes the ultra cut possible in Mushroom Gorge, as well as the final turn "wall ride" which is currently not allowed via Players Page rules.

Brief context;
- CTGP channel has automated leaderboards where the ghosts are uploaded.
- On tracks with SCs/lap skips, Bean essentially makes another checkpoint on the track treated as "key" so that if it is bypassed on any lap then it immediately goes into the SC/skip category.
  → He doesn't change the checkpoints in the actual game, he just looks at which ones were passed and demands certain ones to be passed in order to filter them.
  → So for example, on Bowser's Castle, one of the checkpoints that isn't key on the spiral turn is treated as a key checkpoint on his check, and thus needs to be driven through on all 3 laps.
  → If it is, it goes into the Non SC/No Glitch leaderboard. If it skips it even once, it lands on the SC/Glitch leaderboard.

At the moment, CM has few runs that fulfil all of the current requirements for no glitch (pass all key checkpoints, including a few additional checkpoints Bean has treated as key) but are clearly glitched. They do this by going out of bounds near the start but still drive through all of the checkpoints, thus it is counted as no glitch. You can see that leaderboard here;

http://chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/leaderboard/05/E4BF364CB0C5899907585D731621...

The plan for this fix is easy, he plans to make many more of them treated as key via his check, to the point where driving out of bounds is much slower than staying in bounds, since you won't be able to cut as much of the track off whilst passing through all mandatory no glitch checkpoints.

TF also currently doesn't differ box clip from non box clip.

http://chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/leaderboard/04/1896AEA49617A571C66FF778D8F2...

An easy resolution, he plans on making one of the checkpoints on the turn the clip skips treated as a key checkpoint, thus it'll work the same as how rBC3 works.

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Mushroom Gorge, however, is a bit of a unique instance.

http://chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/leaderboard/02/0E380357AFFCFD87223299948856...

The current time at #1 on CTGP uses the mountain at the end of the track to cut the final corner.
Most people are familiar with this cut, but for those that aren't, it's performed by mushrooming off the last bouncy mushroom in the cave and then angling yourself in the air to wrap around the final corner by riding the mountain wall.

The current rules on the PP, and adopted by the mkwrs page are as follows;



- No riding on walls/mountain
- The 'Canyon Gap' that cuts the final turn is allowed, only if you don't ride the wall/mountain, clipping the wall is okay.

In order for Bean to fix the leaderboard, since it doesn't skip any checkpoints of any kind, he had to look into what made the wall ride possible and how to detect it so that it would flag in a run and thus be moved to a different category.

To do this, he booted up his debugger and investigated how the locked speed mechanic worked. Basically, when you touch a locked speed ramp, a flag is set stating that your character is moving at a fixed speed and that the speed doesn't change until you touch the floor again (or another locked speed ramp, such as a bouncy mushroom). Using a mushroom prior increases the lock speed, and depending on the locked speed ramp is what your speed is locked to.

Slow ramp (rGV2, rSGB, rBC3) = 50.0 units per frame
Bouncy mushroom (MG) = 73.0 units per frame
Bouncy mushroom in mushroom boost = 100.0 units per frame

When colliding with any wall, after hitting a locked speed ramp prior to it, your vehicle is locked to that speed, even whilst on the wall. This is how the MG ultra works; without anything acting against you to decrease your speed, as long as you can defy gravity (i.e. the slope of the wall lets you angle yourself so you can propel yourself upwards) then you can ride them as long as you see fit.

Detecting that is easy enough, and he could filter those that use the wall ride apart from those that don't, purely based on the flag that occurs when you collide with the mountain.

The reason for this thread is because wall riding exists in another form, which is currently not banned on any rule set...

Mushroom Peaks Wall Ride Binary (Twitch highlight from his stream)

To summarise, he turned on his debugger and told the game to freeze on any frame where it triggered the flag found on the wall ride (leaving a fixed speed ramp, followed by colliding a solid wall). In the highlight, you can see that the game freezes when colliding with the side of a mushroom, indicating that the physics that make the wall ride possible are also present with clipping the side of mushrooms.

It also happens when touching a bouncy mushroom, then lightly grazing the fence at the start.

Here's a clip of the debugger in action.

The game freezes when the flag is hit that he's colliding with a wall after hitting a fixed speed ramp; the fence behaves the same way as the mountain on the last turn.

Here's another feature of the debugger showing what happens when you remove fixed speed.

In this clip, his debugger freezes when hitting the wall, indicating the wall ride has started; he then turns off the flag for fixed speed, and gets different results.

And here's one last one, showing how you can trigger wall riding even when it looks like you don't ride the wall.

In this one, you clearly see the back wheel of the bike go through the fence, but the flag is still triggered for wall riding; despite not getting any kind of launch from it. At real time speed, it'd be really hard to tell that this triggered the wall ride flag, but it's there.

But it doesn't stop there...

This technique can be found in the Mushroom Gorge No Glitch TAS.

Hitting the corner of the mushrooms in this way acts the same way as wall riding the final turn of the track. The boost you get from the corner is the exact same quirk of the physics engine; you are able to gain more speed and pass the locked speed (going from 73.0 to 89) and the TAS abuses this. This could very well be implemented into human runs, and there's a high chance a handful of the flaps on MG No SC make use of this exploit for the first mushroom at the start, even by accident. It's highly likely that this run grazes the fence and gets pushed forward ever so slightly by it, and even runs like this one may have even hit the fence and got a slight push, but it's impossible to know for sure without analysing the ghost file.

So before Bean can make a fix, he needs to know what the community decision is behind this. His own personal opinion on it is this;



But obviously it's not up to him, it's up to the community as a whole to decide what happens. He needs to fix the leaderboard in some way, and this could also mean that the current PP rule on this track needs revising, because at the moment, it's possible runs have been performed using this, despite it being a banned mechanic.

You could argue that the wall ride at the end and the bouncy mushroom wall ride are different; but the game treats them the same. If you turn off the physics that make riding the mountain possible, then "mushroom abuse" (as it has been dubbed in the TAS) also stops functioning, as does the fence on the bridge at the start when you graze it.

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Option 1: Allow all instances of wall riding

This would basically make riding the corner standard for no glitch. Anything goes, as long as you aren't skipping key check points. It would be treated like a new strat and people would implement it into runs. All key checkpoints must be driven in order regardless, but riding the wall/grazing the fence/clipping the side of bouncy mushrooms are all allowed to optimise the time.

Option 2: Allow everywhere except on the last turn

This means the current rules are in place, and remain untouched. Wall riding on the last turn is forbidden, but doing anything else that uses wall riding on any other part of the track, such as the fence and the bouncy mushrooms is allowed. Arguably the most hypocritical and arbitrary, as you are essentially nitpicking between what you can and can't do with what is essentially the same mechanic.

Option 3: Allow against side of objects (bouncy mushrooms) but not walls (solid or invisible)

This is the above rule, but being more specific. This basically means that using it as a way to gain time/momentum is fine, but only off of the side of a bouncy mushroom (like the TAS does). This would also be a rule that would make it so players that may have accidentally clipped the side of a bouncy mushroom won't have their no glitch runs invalidated by Bean's check. However, still arbitrary and nitpicking between instances of the same physics quirk. Will also make flaps difficult to moderate, as video evidence/the ghost file/having it driven on CTGP would be the only way to check if any instances of wall ride were used during the run.

Option 4: Disallow all instances of wall riding

Alternatively, keep the rule as it is (i.e. ban the wall ride) but enforce it everywhere for consistency. Recognise that using the corners of mushrooms to be launched forward is wall riding, and ban all instances of that. Being brushed against the fence at the start after using the first mushroom for flap is also forbidden; meaning you would need to very evidently clear the cut and not touch the fence in any way. The only downside with this is that it's impossible to gauge runs which accidentally graze the fence, and all flaps/3laps that skip the opening would need ghosts/video/driven on CTGP to validate whether any instance of wall riding had occurred.

Bean can't proceed until he has a community decision, the same way as how he needed to know the stance My Stuff/Custom Music Mods before inventing the system to check and moderate that. I have direct contact with Bean and I can get him to answer questions about it if you're confused on anything. He's also accessible when live streaming on Twitch.

also imo if i had control id just make a total reform to the category system, on each track i'd have:

The fastest time that skips KCPs

The fastest time that hits all KCPs (so BC3 SC, rDH SC, MG Wallride, GV Rock, etc...)

Then on a track by track basis a 3rd category if people deem i nessesary (GV No-SC, rDH No SC, MG Gap, etc...)


cuz the problem rn is its such a grey area for everything, but here the first two categories cant be argued with, its a yes/no question if a run hits all the kcp or not.

After reading this post in full (only watching 1 video though), I really disagree that, gameplay wise, riding mushrooms or the fence is the same as wall riding even though the game treats the mechanics similarly. Whoever made the no glitch rules way back when probably figured anything nintendo intended as a normal path, strange physics or not, is the nonsc route, and anything else is sc or glitch. One can definitely see a difference in the wall riding at the end vs the mushroom or fence glitches. Obviously you have to bounce on the mushrooms to finish the track so theres no avoiding an accidental occurrence of this effect. There are hundred of mg no glitch flaps im sure that also accidentally abuse the fence glitch too. I can understand changing the rules ONLY as necessary fixes for ctgp leaderboards but since I think the poll is referring to changing the rules as a whole, my thought is I wish the rules would just be kept the same. So that is why I will vote for option 2 and keep the rules in play that have existed for a decade. To me this is much less of a question than say for example, mt turnskip, which should also be disallowed for no glitch. But I digress. As no disrespect to Daseia’s efforts on mg using the wallride, it makes no sense to strip Blaze of the record. We should keep the rules the same as they are and can always create separate leaderboards for mg wallride outside of ctgp, and then everyone wins in a way.

Justin, wrote on 01/28/20 at 21:07:18:

do this

Option 1 should've been the answer from the beginning but it's way too late for that now.  Tons of other tracks have arbitrary dumb rules so if MG gets revamped then many others need to as well.



Option 2 is the correct answer for now.  I'd be pissed as hell if I were Blaze and option 2 isn't what the community goes with.  With that said i reread the options after I already voted lol (yes I see it highlighted, I misread it after coming back to this page) and I'd change my answer to option 2 because that's what I originally had in mind.

Options 3 and 4 are very bad Options in my opinion. To implement them we'd have to either:

- Remove every flap without a video (and the ones with videos that collide with the fence on the first shroom)
- Create different rulesets for flap and 3lap
- Count old runs with wallriding the fence but not new ones.


I think this would lead to more and more problems, so I wont consider voting for these. However, the no-sc rules should be re-worded if the current ruleset remains the same, since it doesn't mention riding the fence for the flap shroomspot at all.

(Technically the current no-sc wording would make it so that riding the fence wouldn't be allowed, but for my 8 years of playing this game and months of no-lifing and reading through the PP forums, I've never once heard or saw a word about it being banned)



Option 1 and option 2 both have pros and cons. Option 1 will Change the entire playing field of mg after years and years of people deliberately not doing the wall sc. Option 2, on the other hand makes very arbitrary and messy rules, but it's more fair from the players' perspective in my opinion. I will be voting for option 2. I think it's too late to make this change. Making MG wall sc an alternative category, like CM sc would please most people.


Basically:

I voted for option 2 because implementing options 3 and 4 would open an entirely new can of worms. Option 1 I could consider voting for, but keeping an even playing field for everyone since pretty much the entire time of the category being competed on is, in my opinion more important than keeping the rules as non-arbitrary as possible.

The decision was made years and years ago, to backroll it now would, in my opinion, be an injustice to everyone who has been told that wallride isn't allowed for ng for the past ~8 (?) years or so. Keeping the ruleset consistent and fair throughout the years is more important than keeping the ruleset as non-arbitrary as possible. The players should come first.

this is gonna be a wild debate, let's go

My stance is that option 2 is the best for the community. Arbitrary? Yes, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
If this shortcut were to be allowed as nosc, then imo so should TF crate clip. Both exploit an oversight in the game to gain a significant advantage. The reason I think an arbitrary rule works perfectly fine here is down to the fact that we have been using essentially the same arbitrary rule for years now, that being minor wall clips, such as clipping the cave on the first cave turn in rsl, are allowed, but major wall clips that skip portions of the track that you are clearly not supposed to, aren’t, even if a key checkpoint isn’t actually skipped. Yes, there is the possibility of grey area, but between having the possibility of that or allowing TF crate clip to become classed as nosc, I think I know which I’d prefer.

Like Rossco's, my personal opinion is also option two.

I've seen MrBean his stream about wall riding and it makes sense. Hitting the side of mushrooms should act like walls but don't because you're wallriding from the mushroom bounce physics. The thing with that is, all these years we just though that's how the musrhooms worked, and it's something that unintentionally happens since it could easily happen during regular TT driving. Whereas wall riding the cliff walls is something you'll specifically have to go out of your way to do.

Since the cliff wall riding makes the ultra sc possible, it should be looked as something the devs overlooked and is absolutely not intended, so it's an action not allowed on no sc runs. Again, hitting the side of the shrooms is the same as wall riding, however it's unavoidable at times during regular driving. All these years we thought nothing of the side hitting mushroom as being the same as wall riding, so we allowed it without thinking twice.

Since it's so late in the life time of MG making a second category would be the best. Make it the main? Sure. Let's call the no wallride category old-no-sc or something whatever haha. But cliff wall riding is what we do to do the ultra, so it should not be allowed in no-sc.

From the perspective of MrBean, I understand that this does not make any sense, as cliff wallriding and hitting sides of the mushrooms are the same. So a stupid workaround has to be implemented instead of one clear in-code rule. However, in this case, since MG rules has been like this ever since, implementing a non-conventional solution would be the best action to do.

We're entering a gray area with this one, so either way of thinking is surely valid. :p However this is how I personally view this ruling situation.  

Batman5112 wrote on 01/29/20 at 04:44:55:


What’s the difference? They are both obvious exploits that can 1) be used to gain a significant advantage in the form of a shortcut and 2) be done accidentally with minimal effect on the run. Surely the same thinking should be applied to both wall clips and wall riding? (and any other exploit that can be used in this way)

Batman5112 wrote on 01/29/20 at 05:08:03:



Wall clips that gain height (aka highclips) aren't inherently disallowed for no-sc, abusing them to create certain unintended shortcuts is. Same case as wall riding, even though wall sc is definitely more of a gray area.

I’m not saying they are the same thing, I’m saying they are both exploits that can be used deliberately and accidentally. It doesn’t matter if you deem one exploit to be ‘worse’ than another, the fact is they are both exploits that can be used in a similar way.

And thanks, but I think I know how wallclips work

I am okay with that exploit because it’s done accidentally and if it wasn’t done accidentally it’s slower anyway

Voting for Option 2 in agreement with the reasons of those above.  Mostly I think it is unfair to change the rules so late in the game.  I agree that it's arbitrary, but that's how it is.  

On another note, as someone who's grinded this track for quite a while back in my day (still #33 on the PP baby!), I think the MG gap makes time trialing this track much more fun.  The progression of gap jump methods is great and I think that fun would be taken away by allowing this slightly faster rock ride in No-SC.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen the mechanic we see in the TAS on the mushrooms happen in my runs, but maybe because I don't often stray from the standard TT path.  Hitting the fence on flap runs is essentally uncontrollable, just due to the physics of the bounce you need off that first mushroom, so I think it would be incredibly annoying to ban it.  And, I hate to say it, but it is part of the """intended""" path that Nintendo put there.