So, after the fiasko with Nagisa, I think the next logical thing to do is have a discussion about suiryu. Nagisa is not suiryu (as far as we know anyways!!!), so suiryu shouldn't be banned just because nagisa is. However, it's definitely a reason to at least discuss the legitimacy of suiryu's runs aswell, since he is a very similar player.


A bit of info:

Suiryu is a very "mysterious" player. The only contact he's had with the community in the last 5 years, as far as I know, has been Nagisa, who has been consistently uploading times from him almost yearly. These times have never had ghosts, and there suiryu or nagisa have not responded to any attempts to contact them, and don't seem to have much interest to play on CTGP.

Before this, suiryu did have some contact (although this was apparently pretty minimal) with the rest of the community. His older times do also have ghost proof on ninrankings, so the claims he made ~pre-2015 do have something to back them up.

Most recent time suiryu set was a 2:20.475 on BCWii no-glitch. This is widely not recognised, just by the fact that it looks sketchy and doesn't meet the proof standards of today, so the run was not counted and since then, suiryu has been in a sort of limbo of his new times not counting, but his old, still sketchy times are. I think after his only modern contact with the community was discovered to have cheated runs in the past, and is now banned, we do need to discuss suiryu aswell.


So. What do we do. Well, I decided to at least try to ignite conversation and start this poll. The results of this are not meant to be taken as a decision that is set in stone, just to see what the general view of the community is. Me, nor anyone else should have the right to decide this on their own. The community makes decisions about the community. Still:

The main point of this post is the discussion, and we can make informed decisions from that.


The options that I thought of were as follows:


1. Complete ban

This is probably the simplest option to explain. We take all his times and throw them in the dumpster. He's too sketchy, too unreliable, there's no contact. Harsh but effective.


2. Pending (All times)
Basically the same as the ban, but we also give him a chance to redeem himself.
If he some day makes contact with the community, provides us with his newer ghosts, proves his skill level or even starts streaming and gets CTGP, we can re-add his times.


3. Pending (Times without ghosts)

Same thing as option 2, but we only remove his times with no ghost proof. We acknowledge that he did once play legit, but the new times are sketchy, so there needs to be ghosts to back it up. We would still be putting many iconic suiryu runs on pending, for example his:

CM 1:56.612 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5I0p606G4
GV2 53.062 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBT-b0vUCog
All of his BCWii runs since after his 2:21.543

But we would still count older times such as:

TF 1:50.710 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgCUIrTwbuc
GV2 53.201 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHRwC1sMzHM


4. Pending (Times set post-WFC)

Suiryu seemingly took a break from MKW between early 2014-mid 2015, his last relevant run being a rWS 1:50.689 (https://www.ninrankings.org/ghostdatabase/ghostviewer.php?id=46991) and came back in 2015 with his BCWii 2:21.222 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqJ1xcvie5A).

We would treat this break as a cut-off point, and count all his times before it and none of them after. The new runs are too sketchy, but we will trust his old runs (even with no ghosts to back them up) because of him having some contact with the community back in the day.


5. Keep all of his times (Apart from 2:20.475)

Things stay as they are. We count his BCWii 2:20.893 as well as other runs of his, but since his new BCWii run is too sketchy and doesn't match today's proof standards, we place it on pending times instead. This will be the case with future runs from him that don't match today's standards, because he is no longer a trusted player.


6. Keep all of his times (Count 2:20.475)
The times haven't been proven to have been cheated, his times should all count. All future runs of his will be counted aswell.



Personally I think option 2 makes the most sense, it both gets rid of times of doubtful legitimacy and also gives him a reason/opportunity to come back and redeem himself. Option 1 is a bit harsh since there is no concrete proof of him cheating.

Option 3 and 4 I can't give my thoughts on, I wasn't around back then, I'd appreciate the old boys giving their experiences of suiryu.

Options 5 and 6 are not fair decisions in my eyes, but hey, that's me.


Discuss!

Option 3

I said his .893 was TAS back when it was set and no one believed me

I'm also the reason .475 wasn't ever counted because I brought up the fact that it's suspicious AF

RosscoXz wrote on 11/01/19 at 05:42:18:


I was the first

InnovΔ wrote on 11/01/19 at 05:44:20:


Probably because you say everything is tas

Vega wrote on 11/01/19 at 07:07:59:


We can say the same thing about Nim aswell though. There's no proof Nim cheated, so we can't really just ban him, right? Same thing with suiryu. The outcome of banning him and putting his times on pending will almost certainly be the same. But the difference is that the possibility of him proving himself is there, no matter how unlike it will be to ever happen.

Pending his times is justified if the community, as a collective, doubts him. Banning isn't because there's no concrete evidence against him, just a lot of speculation.

Batman5112 wrote on 11/01/19 at 07:27:53:


Some or Jorge's runs are a part of the WR history because they were set before TAS tools became widely available (at least that's what I've been told many times).

I think if you were to look at the issue from the perspective of not meeting our rules, we would need to backtrack AT LEAST Hibiki's rDKM for consistency's sake. And in my opinion, that needs to happen if we were to backtrack suiryu's runs from a rules perspective. (I would be perfectly happy with this happening, I don't think he ever deserved to be on there). But the rules before ~2018 were a huge mess at least in my eyes, and they still are to a certain degree. I think you can also make a point that suiryu's pre-2:20.475 runs actually DID meet the proof standard of the time.

I wasn't around back when suiryu communicated with people, so I'm not the best person at all to talk about this. And yeah, I do think it's best to leave the discussion of those times to the people who were making decisions back then. I do still think that if the majority of the community severely distrusts suiryu, and a good amount of discussion happens, the possibility of pending all his times should be on the table.

At the end of the day I think it's the community's job to make decisions about the community, since the person being accused doesn't have any contact with us.

Is there even any evidence that suiryu cheats other than that one of their friends was a cheater? That's hardly evidence at all.

Max28 wrote on 11/01/19 at 12:47:55:


Questioning his legitimacy was not an issue until people started to harass him after he already proved himself. Big difference.

accidentally voted ban. I think his times that only nagisa has the ghost for should be removed but the others stay

RosscoXz wrote on 11/02/19 at 05:01:16:


Just stick with this.

I don't really understand why we would not count that one bcwii time but all the other times are fine. Like either he is legit or not. If that run is cheated, and the majority or at least a good amount of people seem to think that, then it seems very naive to me to think that that is the only run he cheated.

There are so much suspicious circumstances like (correct me if i am wrong, maybe I mixed up some details):
1) His only real contact/friend in the community (with whom he exchanged ghosts) is a cheater
2) Does not want to proof himself by sending ghosts (but from what I have heard, he has send his ghost to Nagisa to record it? So he knows how to send ghosts)
3) The community already has decided to not count one time, because it looks too suspicious
And the only defense I see is that he has been active for a long time, but so many cheaters had been a part of the community for a long time before they got caught so I don't see how that is a good argument.
I totally understand giving somebody the benfit of the doubt if they are actually trying to prove themselves (like fox was at the time for example) but him not doing any attempt is just yet another red flag that stacked with all the other red flags, is just too much to ignore.

After second thought, I would be for keeping all times before 2015.

Cole wrote on 11/02/19 at 11:41:35:

Pushing the cut-off date shouldn't have this black and white effect. Under normal circumstances it is not fair to pend players' WRs set years ago for not following our 2019 view. Through the power of hindsight we should have pushed to establish the current policies much sooner (or at least had been stricter with our proof requirements).

We have to look back to the "rules" before CTGP existed. In general, a player was legitimate if they streamed or obtained a trusted status. Sometimes for the latter case, it wasn't from streaming but through some other explanation (such as being a "veteran" or demonstrating natural progression).

So I think we should ask ourselves which players, who never streamed and aren't currently active on CTGP, do we trust upon looking back with our 2019 eyes. Nobody has a suspicious character except Suiryu. Nobody has had one of their records pended except Suiryu. Nobody has a thread with their name the focal point except for Suiryu. Whether you agree or not, the community has deemed Suiryu more suspicious than the rest.
This is why if any action proceeds, Suiryu is the only player it is applied to atm. Suiryu is the only person who lost people's trust. Pending the BC time made this a fact, and Nagisa cheating confirms he will never regain trust until he comes forth from the shadows and starts playing on ctgp.