Mario Kart MB - Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music & Tex

Vega

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Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music & Tex
12/02/17 at 06:45:33

I am proposing an 'amendment' to modify the current rules of Custom Music, Textures, etc.

It is critical to have as much feedback/criticism as possible.

My proposal----
Custom Music is allowed but if and only if it is only the Course BGM. Kart Sounds, Physics sounds, Character voice sounds, etc are NOT allowed to be modify in any way..

Disabling Course BGM completely is not allowed.

Current rule banning all texture modifications remains the same.

------------

I know I'm probably forgetting some things and/or forgetting about certain scenarios which can bypass the rules. So let's come together and get a finalized proposal which could then be put up for a vote down the road.

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InnovΔ Legend Offline helped 3008 people Milky Way Galaxy Gender:	Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music Reply #1 - 12/02/17 at 07:00:13 Course BGM still provides an advantage though... For example, Love Live music actually helps the timing of the moonjumps on RR
Back to top	Ketchup wrote on 07/08/21 at 07:33:13: if you anonymize the names of mkw predators eventually the whole leaderboard will be anonymous Puddings wrote on 03/11/23 at 19:31:52: mkdd gayass mf game, y'all tried playing bitches? IP Logged

Diamond Legend Offline Roasted 2942 Statisticians	Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music Reply #2 - 12/02/17 at 07:32:09 ^Even if we did ban custom music, you could still play that song on your computer or phone to help you time the moonjumps. There's really no effective way to guarantee that people won't do that.
Back to top	Hugo wrote on 07/31/17 at 15:13:47: Well, it would be like rolling a die and it landing tails every time. After every roll the chance of it being tails becomes less and less, because eventually it will land on heads. JawsTheShark wrote on 10/17/18 at 14:10:09: Walter is Australian, right? IP Logged

The M

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #3 - 12/02/17 at 07:38:34

So disabling the BGM is not allowed because it gives an advantage right? Then could people not just set a song as BGM with a very low volume? (if that is possible). Or a song that is silent in the time intervals were for example a chain wheelie would happen?
How would you solve that without making it a subjective rule?

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Sorry for my bad English ;p

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RosscoXz

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #4 - 12/02/17 at 08:05:02

Im sort of sitting on the fence, I think it would be much easier to legislate if the ban remained, however I don't like the idea that perfectly legitimate times aren't accepted because music is used that obviously would not give the player an advantage. I would suggest that if a player set an elite time with custom BGM, it should be looked at individually by trusted members/admins, idk though, that doesn't seem very efficient, so I suppose for now I'll stay on the keep the ban bandwagon.

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InnovΔ

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #5 - 12/02/17 at 08:10:30

RosscoXz wrote on 12/02/17 at 08:05:02:

Im sort of sitting on the fence, I think it would be much easier to legislate if the ban remained, however I don't like the idea that perfectly legitimate times aren't accepted because music is used that obviously would not give the player an advantage. I would suggest that if a player set an elite time with custom BGM, it should be looked at individually by trusted members/admins, idk though, that doesn't seem very efficient, so I suppose for now I'll stay on the keep the ban bandwagon.

There's no elite standard on the MKWii PP

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Ketchup wrote on 07/08/21 at 07:33:13:

if you anonymize the names of mkw predators eventually the whole leaderboard will be anonymous

Puddings wrote on 03/11/23 at 19:31:52:

mkdd gayass mf game, y'all tried playing bitches?

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Diamond

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #6 - 12/02/17 at 08:14:43

InnovΔ wrote on 12/02/17 at 08:10:30:

RosscoXz wrote on 12/02/17 at 08:05:02:

Im sort of sitting on the fence, I think it would be much easier to legislate if the ban remained, however I don't like the idea that perfectly legitimate times aren't accepted because music is used that obviously would not give the player an advantage. I would suggest that if a player set an elite time with custom BGM, it should be looked at individually by trusted members/admins, idk though, that doesn't seem very efficient, so I suppose for now I'll stay on the keep the ban bandwagon.

There's no elite standard on the MKWii PP

I'm pretty sure he just used the word 'elite' to refer to top tier times

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Hugo wrote on 07/31/17 at 15:13:47:

Well, it would be like rolling a die and it landing tails every time. After every roll the chance of it being tails becomes less and less, because eventually it will land on heads.

JawsTheShark wrote on 10/17/18 at 14:10:09:

Walter is Australian, right?

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RosscoXz

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #7 - 12/02/17 at 08:23:58

Diamond wrote on 12/02/17 at 08:14:43:

InnovΔ wrote on 12/02/17 at 08:10:30:

RosscoXz wrote on 12/02/17 at 08:05:02:

Im sort of sitting on the fence, I think it would be much easier to legislate if the ban remained, however I don't like the idea that perfectly legitimate times aren't accepted because music is used that obviously would not give the player an advantage. I would suggest that if a player set an elite time with custom BGM, it should be looked at individually by trusted members/admins, idk though, that doesn't seem very efficient, so I suppose for now I'll stay on the keep the ban bandwagon.

There's no elite standard on the MKWii PP

I'm pretty sure he just used the word 'elite' to refer to top tier times

exactly

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Max28

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #8 - 12/02/17 at 09:02:32

Cole wrote on 12/01/17 at 17:31:15:

I don’t update MKWii WRs anymore so I wasn’t involved in the decision to add Hibiki’s and Fox’s WRs. However, I probably would have also decided to add these WRs. Hibiki claimed that he didn’t know the rules since there are not rules clearly listed on the WR site. Yes that’s true and I plan to add rules to the site soon (with a Japanese translation). I’m not sure what the details are in Fox’s case but it’s likely an accident, since many players are in a situation where they have mods on for wifi/CTs and turn them off for Nintendo-track TTs. The point of banning custom music/textures is to prevent people from gaining an advantage by modifying the game. Obviously these 2 cases were not trying to do that, so I’m fine to make exceptions.

That being said, there’s no way I support fully unbanning custom music/textures. I am convinced that people could gain advantages from them if they were allowed. The example I used in the past is that the music can be disabled so that you can hear the wheelie sound effect more clearly. When I play LC the chain wheelie in the lap transition is harder for me than the chain before the SC for various reasons. I’m pretty sure that one of those reasons is that the lap transition sound effect makes it harder to hear the wheelie sound effect, which I rely on to time my wheelies. If disabling music increases a player’s chain wheelie success rate by just 1% then that would unacceptable to me. How is that any different than using a cheat code to increase your chain wheelie rate? Modifying the game to gain an advantage should not be allowed. No other kart game would allow something like this, and I can’t think of any other speedrun game that would allow something like this either.

Another thing someone could do is edit the wheelie sound effect itself, to a metronome or consistent beat. I think this would be even more helpful, especially when combined with disabling the track music and lap transition sound effect. I have never tried these types of edits but I plan on trying them eventually and seeing if my chain wheelie rate changes. I’m fairly confident that an advantage can be gained from music hacks, even if it’s very minor.

For textures IMO it’s even more obvious how they can be used as an advantage. As Alex mentioned, you could make texture hacks that make it easier to line up for glitches / difficult strats. Another thing you could do is make certain walls transparent to see the next corner more clearly. Also, a common complaint people have when racing ghosts is that they obstruct their view. With MyStuff edits you could probably make the ghost more transparent and remove the mii name.

I think if custom textures / music weren’t banned, then we would have seen some players coming up with ways to gain minor advantages using them. But since they’ve been banned, no one has had the motivation to explore what these modifications can do. And I think the competition is much better without these modifications in play. It’s not fair to all the people who played vanilla MKWii to get their times defeated by people playing with modifications.

My suggested solution:
Make a rule saying that using custom music/textures to gain an advantage is banned. This would cover things like using alignment textures, disabling the sound for chains, etc.

Normal/accidental use would be “soft-banned”. This would cover things like using your favourite song as the track BGM, playing on the no-sound-triggers track, having minor texture edits, etc.
Basically a “soft-ban” would mean that updaters can make exceptions but encourage players to not use any modifications. If someone sets a WR with mods, updaters can decide to count it or not. If it’s clear that the mods used could give an advantage, then the first rule will cover it and the time shouldn’t count. Also, if someone repeatedly uses modifications the updaters can just decide not to count their time (since that would also mean their ghosts aren’t being uploaded to CTGP).

Basically, I think it’s wrong not to count a WR if it just has a minor modification that clearly doesn’t give an advantage. But I still think we should have some form of ban, to prevent people from trying to gain advantages using game mods.

After we discuss this issue we should discuss the rest of the rules and add them to MKWRs. And yes, I agree we should have a standardized set of rules across PP/Top 10/MKWRs/CTGP.

I completely agree with what Cole says here. The goal of mkwrs should be to have the fastest legitimate times, and if a player sets a record with slight modifications that are determined not to give them an advantage, the time should count. However, we should also strive to have all times from as close to vanilla time trials as possible. So for WRs and other elite times, if there are occasional small modifications or mistakes, such as the cases of Hibiki and Fox, updaters should decide on a case-by-case basis on which times are legitimate.

I also agree that the rules need to be more clearly stated on mkwrs, and that if this is a repeat occurance, the player must be warned and eventually their times will not count. Removing the custom music ban entirely, even with stipulations, creates too much grey area where we must speculate player motivations and whether advantages are gained. I think removing the custom textures ban is completely out of the question, as it would be even easier to gain an advantage.

Essentially, I love the idea of a "soft ban" for accidental use, I think the wrs should be the fastest legitimate times, even if they are not completely vanilla, modifying the rules is too wishy-washy and will create unnecessary confusion and stress, and the rules should be consistent across mkwrs, mkwpp, etc.

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TBK wrote on 04/04/06 at 12:45:27:

well, that's your own fault for making up those rules!!!

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Vega

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #9 - 12/02/17 at 09:58:17

@The M, very strong point. If custom music is allowed,a player could just lower the volume so much to mimic disabled music.

@Max, Cole's solution requires way way too much subjectivity. First you would have to define the term advantage. One players idea of an advantage can far differ from anothrrs's definition. So this would lead to case by case handling. That would be disastrous. It would lead to discrimination. Also you would have to prove intent regarding the advantage ordeal. With intent you would need to define what qualifies as reasonable articulate suspicion. See the can of worms already?

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MKchouy93

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #10 - 12/02/17 at 14:36:46

Cole wrote on 12/01/17 at 17:31:15:

That being said, there’s no way I support fully unbanning custom music/textures. I am convinced that people could gain advantages from them if they were allowed. The example I used in the past is that the music can be disabled so that you can hear the wheelie sound effect more clearly. When I play LC the chain wheelie in the lap transition is harder for me than the chain before the SC for various reasons. I’m pretty sure that one of those reasons is that the lap transition sound effect makes it harder to hear the wheelie sound effect, which I rely on to time my wheelies. If disabling music increases a player’s chain wheelie success rate by just 1% then that would unacceptable to me. How is that any different than using a cheat code to increase your chain wheelie rate? Modifying the game to gain an advantage should not be allowed. No other kart game would allow something like this, and I can’t think of any other speedrun game that would allow something like this either.

My problem with this is that I believe this is already the case with CTGP. Do you think that someone with Braixan's DKJP marker ghost could make the glitch 1% more than someone playing vanilla mkw without that marker ghost?

As for the chain wheelie success rate; personally I don't notice a difference but if other people believe that it's easier to time then that's something to take into consideration. I still think it's a smaller possible advantage than what CTGP already offers but that's just opinion.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just the case that the other kart games just don't have the support to be modified to the extent that mkw is? I thought that's why this type of discussion didn't really happen much in the other MKs.

Cole wrote on 12/01/17 at 17:31:15:

Another thing someone could do is edit the wheelie sound effect itself, to a metronome or consistent beat. I think this would be even more helpful, especially when combined with disabling the track music and lap transition sound effect. I have never tried these types of edits but I plan on trying them eventually and seeing if my chain wheelie rate changes. I’m fairly confident that an advantage can be gained from music hacks, even if it’s very minor.

I don't understand the technicalities behind modding mkw as much as others, but isn't modding the wheelie sounds and character sounds different from modding the music? I thought changing the BGM would only edit the track song, not other things?

Cole wrote on 12/01/17 at 17:31:15:

For textures IMO it’s even more obvious how they can be used as an advantage. As Alex mentioned, you could make texture hacks that make it easier to line up for glitches / difficult strats. Another thing you could do is make certain walls transparent to see the next corner more clearly. Also, a common complaint people have when racing ghosts is that they obstruct their view. With MyStuff edits you could probably make the ghost more transparent and remove the mii name.

I don't know how I feel about textures yet, I agree with a lot of what you said. As far as the ghost tag being edited out, isn't this separate from textures?

Cole wrote on 12/01/17 at 17:31:15:

My suggested solution:
Make a rule saying that using custom music/textures to gain an advantage is banned. This would cover things like using alignment textures, disabling the sound for chains, etc.

Normal/accidental use would be “soft-banned”. This would cover things like using your favourite song as the track BGM, playing on the no-sound-triggers track, having minor texture edits, etc.
Basically a “soft-ban” would mean that updaters can make exceptions but encourage players to not use any modifications. If someone sets a WR with mods, updaters can decide to count it or not. If it’s clear that the mods used could give an advantage, then the first rule will cover it and the time shouldn’t count. Also, if someone repeatedly uses modifications the updaters can just decide not to count their time (since that would also mean their ghosts aren’t being uploaded to CTGP).

Basically, I think it’s wrong not to count a WR if it just has a minor modification that clearly doesn’t give an advantage. But I still think we should have some form of ban, to prevent people from trying to gain advantages using game mods.

After we discuss this issue we should discuss the rest of the rules and add them to MKWRs. And yes, I agree we should have a standardized set of rules across PP/Top 10/MKWRs/CTGP.

If I'm going to be completely honest, I don't really know how "accidentally" playing with mods happens lol. Hibiki had a blatant message in japanese saying to disable the Mystuff folder to save the ghost. There's an obvious reason for that message, because it's against the rules lol (and we can't look at his inputs because the ghost doesn't save..). Seems to me that he just didn't like the rule and played the language barrier card. Whether or not it's specifically stated in Japanese on MKWRs.com, I really can't believe that he didn't know unless he was a complete idiot. With that said, I'm all for lifting the rule because I think it's outdated not because I feel bad for Hibiki. The last part I highlighted is what I think is most important for the community's sake. I understand the sites are owned by different people but if they have separate rules then we create a divide in the community on which WRs are considered real or not. As much as I would like the rule lifted, if nothing else I hope after this discussion both sites come to a mutual agreement on rules even if it means that the ban stays.

To me, I think the best solution would be to lift the custom music ban (unless I'm wrong about editing the bgm and wheelie/character sounds are changed, then I have to rethink) and if some people actually go to the extent of adding metronomes and stuff then as a community we could hold a majority vote on whether it's taking advantage of the rules? WRs aren't frequent enough where I think it would become too hectic. It really seems more trouble than it's worth to go to that extent for such a minimal possible reward but maybe I'm underestimating people.

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #11 - 12/02/17 at 15:16:18

MKchouy93 wrote on 12/02/17 at 14:36:46:

My problem with this is that I believe this is already the case with CTGP. Do you think that someone with Braixan's DKJP marker ghost could make the glitch 1% more than someone playing vanilla mkw without that marker ghost?

But you're not modifying the game when you play against ghosts like that, so I don't really see how you can compare that to using custom textures/music, which require that mods be made to the game. Playing ghosts like that now is similar to how you could play and download ghosts off of nintendo's leaderboards back in the day.

MKchouy93 wrote on 12/02/17 at 14:36:46:

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just the case that the other kart games just don't have the support to be modified to the extent that mkw is? I thought that's why this type of discussion didn't really happen much in the other MKs.

AFAIK yes, it is much easier to TAS and modify mkw than other MKs

MKchouy93 wrote on 12/02/17 at 14:36:46:

I don't understand the technicalities behind modding mkw as much as others, but isn't modding the wheelie sounds and character sounds different from modding the music? I thought changing the BGM would only edit the track song, not other things?

Yes, that is correct

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Hugo wrote on 07/31/17 at 15:13:47:

Well, it would be like rolling a die and it landing tails every time. After every roll the chance of it being tails becomes less and less, because eventually it will land on heads.

JawsTheShark wrote on 10/17/18 at 14:10:09:

Walter is Australian, right?

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Vinnie927 King Offline #1 lurker drank 4476 beers Canada Gender:	Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music Reply #12 - 12/02/17 at 15:44:33 What would you call CTGP if it's not a mod?
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Cole

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #13 - 12/02/17 at 15:58:04

I think this rule proposal is better than the current rules but I would still prefer my suggestion. Yes, it's more objective than my suggestion but there's still some subjectivity involved since you would have to add something like "can't disable track BGM or use a quiet/silent song".

Also, this proposal keeps the full ban on textures, but I'm not sure if the community would be fine with not counting a WR with a minor texture edit if it was a similar case to Fox/Hibiki. Like if someone accidentally used a custom font or something, it should still count IMO. I would say "accidentally" is like when someone has modifications on for wifi/CTGPs then surprisingly hits a WR when warming up or messing around. IMO that kind of WR should still count if the modifications clearly don't give an advantage.

Another thing is that CTGP currently doesn't allow uploading a ghost with any modifications. I think we should keep that mechanism, since it prevents cheated times. If we do allow custom BGM then I think CTGP should be changed to allow it, otherwise players might just choose not to use CTGP, which means we don't get the ghost uploaded or anti-cheat mechanisms.

MKchouy93 wrote on 12/02/17 at 14:36:46:

Cole wrote on 12/01/17 at 17:31:15:

That being said, there’s no way I support fully unbanning custom music/textures. I am convinced that people could gain advantages from them if they were allowed. The example I used in the past is that the music can be disabled so that you can hear the wheelie sound effect more clearly. When I play LC the chain wheelie in the lap transition is harder for me than the chain before the SC for various reasons. I’m pretty sure that one of those reasons is that the lap transition sound effect makes it harder to hear the wheelie sound effect, which I rely on to time my wheelies. If disabling music increases a player’s chain wheelie success rate by just 1% then that would unacceptable to me. How is that any different than using a cheat code to increase your chain wheelie rate? Modifying the game to gain an advantage should not be allowed. No other kart game would allow something like this, and I can’t think of any other speedrun game that would allow something like this either.

My problem with this is that I believe this is already the case with CTGP. Do you think that someone with Braixan's DKJP marker ghost could make the glitch 1% more than someone playing vanilla mkw without that marker ghost?

Ghost sharing is an intended part of the original game. Modifying the music/textures isn't.

Yes, it's true that CTGP is easier for sharing ghosts. I would say that all current players should be on CTGP anyways just due to the benefit it gives to the community by having anti-cheat mechanisms. What I believe is that modern day players should be TTing under conditions that are as close as possible to the original game that we've always played on. Ghosts are expected to change over time, so it's fine that it's easier to share ghosts. Stuff like CTGP menus or leaderboards don't affect the TT experience itself. The extra code they added in the background to calculate times to 12 digits also doesn't impact TTs. So IMO, TTing on CTGP with MyStuff disabled is basically the same as TTing on vanilla MKWii, so I'm fine with it.

I'll give an example showing why sharing ghosts is fair but game mods aren't. Let's say a player is holding a WR since 2010 on a chain dependent track:

Scenario 1: He gets beaten in 2017 since a group of competitors share ghosts with each other and are able to find flaws and improve their driving. The fact that there are more ghosts to learn from in 2017 is a natural and expected part of the game. It is not unfair to the 2010 player to lose the WR this way, even if they were using CTGP to share ghosts instead of the game's original method.

Scenario 2: He gets beaten in 2017 since a player uses modifications to help make his chain wheelie rate higher. In this case I would argue it's unfair to the 2010 player to lose WR, since it is not natural or expected for the 2017 player to be playing with modifications to the original game.

Also, I'll say that technically you could play on vanilla MKWii with any ghost you want. This would basically involve editing the save file using hacks and then booting the game normally. Even without hacks, it would still be possible to share ghosts using vanilla MKWii by shipping Wiis to each other or meeting IRL.

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #14 - 12/02/17 at 16:27:12

MKchouy93 wrote on 12/02/17 at 15:52:28:

CTGP is a mod. It offers ghosts that are not obtainable without this mod. The game is already modified by the time you start TTing vs a ghost that you downloaded through this mod.

Ok. Then you might as well say that having internet is a mod, since without internet, you wouldn't have been able to access nintendo's leaderboards to download and play against ghosts you otherwise wouldn't have been able to play. Also, read what Cole said above. The point is, exchanging ghost data for savefiles is a completely intentional part of the game, while modifying textures and music isn't.

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« Last Edit: 12/02/17 at 18:02:42 by Diamond »

Hugo wrote on 07/31/17 at 15:13:47:

Well, it would be like rolling a die and it landing tails every time. After every roll the chance of it being tails becomes less and less, because eventually it will land on heads.

JawsTheShark wrote on 10/17/18 at 14:10:09:

Walter is Australian, right?

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #15 - 12/02/17 at 16:31:23

Cole wrote on 12/02/17 at 15:58:04:

Also, I'll say that technically you could play on vanilla MKWii with any ghost you want. This would basically involve editing the save file using hacks and then booting the game normally. Even without hacks, it would still be possible to share ghosts using vanilla MKWii by shipping Wiis to each other or meeting IRL.

What about using wiiscrubber (not sure if it's still a thing tho) to edit ingame files in a iso? Like putting the dkjp aligning ghost as the 'Nintendo Creator Ghost'. Would this count towards modifying the game? In my case, i'm not able to use CTGP because i have a broken disc reader since ages. This would be the only possible way to get current ghosts into my game (i believe).

And how would you want to share ghosts by meeting up in IRL / shipping Wiis? Huh

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #16 - 12/02/17 at 16:37:30

Royy wrote on 12/02/17 at 16:31:23:

Cole wrote on 12/02/17 at 15:58:04:

Also, I'll say that technically you could play on vanilla MKWii with any ghost you want. This would basically involve editing the save file using hacks and then booting the game normally. Even without hacks, it would still be possible to share ghosts using vanilla MKWii by shipping Wiis to each other or meeting IRL.

What about using wiiscrubber (not sure if it's still a thing tho) to edit ingame files in a iso? Like putting the dkjp aligning ghost as the 'Nintendo Creator Ghost'. Would this count towards modifying the game?

Yes. You are replacing in game files when you do that

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Hugo wrote on 07/31/17 at 15:13:47:

Well, it would be like rolling a die and it landing tails every time. After every roll the chance of it being tails becomes less and less, because eventually it will land on heads.

JawsTheShark wrote on 10/17/18 at 14:10:09:

Walter is Australian, right?

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Cole

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #17 - 12/02/17 at 16:37:43

Royy wrote on 12/02/17 at 16:31:23:

Cole wrote on 12/02/17 at 15:58:04:

Also, I'll say that technically you could play on vanilla MKWii with any ghost you want. This would basically involve editing the save file using hacks and then booting the game normally. Even without hacks, it would still be possible to share ghosts using vanilla MKWii by shipping Wiis to each other or meeting IRL.

What about using wiiscrubber (not sure if it's still a thing tho) to edit ingame files in a iso? Like putting the dkjp aligning ghost as the 'Nintendo Creator Ghost'. Would this count towards modifying the game? In my case, i'm not able to use CTGP because i have a broken disc reader since ages. This would be the only possible way to get current ghosts into my game (i believe).

And how would you want to share ghosts by meeting up in IRL / shipping Wiis? Huh

Editing the ISO is technically modifying the game, but the thing we're discussing is modifications that affect TTs. Editing ghosts on an iso is allowed just like CTGP ghosts are allowed. And before CTGP there were some players who used Riivolution to race ghosts which is also allowed.

Regarding shipping Wiis, I'm just pointing out that it's technically possible to share ghosts without hacking (which is why sharing ghosts using methods like CTGP should be allowed). However it's impossible to change the BGM/textures without hacks.

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #18 - 12/02/17 at 18:14:30

As Cole and some others have mentioned, we are only talking about the game during TT.

It appears to me that most of us agree that custom textures should remain banned. Also, I think we can all agree that any ideas of banning CTGP would be silly. CTGP is pretty much the new standard for a Time Trailer's legitmacy.

With regards to setting 'illegal' runs by accident. This is a difficult one for sure. We might need to come up with a strike system. First time setting a TT with illegal mods by accident, the run will still count. But if said player messes up a second time (or beyond a second time), then the time simply doesn't count; as they already had a 'warning'.

But if there's any evidence or reasonable articulate suspicion that a TTer intended to fake an accidental illegal run, then even if it's their first 'mistake', the time shouldn't count.

Scenario: A player gets an elite time and sends it to the Time Updating thread. There's enough reasonable suspicion that they had the intent of sending an illegal time. Should we have a system that puts said time up for a vote of approval in a thread?? We could make a thread in the future specifically for situations like this where the community decides the fate of the illegal time.

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MKchouy93

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #19 - 12/02/17 at 18:31:00

Not to sound like an asshole but I don't see how Nintendo's intentions are exactly relevant to our conditions in which we play under? CTGP in itself is surely not an intention for how Nintendo wanted the game to be played yet we count those WRs. Let alone the fact that there were HUGE limitations to ghost sharing back when wifi was available so it's not really comparable to CTGP's ability to share ghosts.

In the end, I thought we were discussing possible advantages these offer. Even if it's possible to hack the save file (I don't understand how that wouldn't be considered modding the game) or exchange wiis/meet irl, it would still be much more advantageous to just use CTGP.

Disclaimer: I don't want CTGP banned lol, I just don't see how it's different from custom music as far as altering the game goes.

Edit: @Zack That's not the worst case scenario, but we're still being very subjective with that solution.

Imo, it's the player who submitted an illegal time who's completely at fault. I really just can't grasp someone accidentally setting an elite time with mods... it should be common sense that if you're going for a serious TT session then you should warm up under the conditions you plan to set your record in.

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« Last Edit: 12/02/17 at 19:00:23 by MKchouy93 »

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Vega

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #20 - 12/02/17 at 19:04:06

Perosonally, I'm fine with Custom BGM and allowing disabled BGM. I'm trying to come up with a 'bill' that the community will agree upon enough to later cast a vote. However, it would be counter intuitive to allow Custom Music, but at the same time, not allow the removal of said Music all together.

Also, you are right Chouy. Just because someone doesn't know the rules, doesn't mean they receive no consequences. Unfortunately, we are going to have situations in the future, which we will have to address. To lower the odds of these situations happening, there could be a rules page on mkwrs.com. If both mkwrs.com adn MKWPP have the same rule set, it would be much easier for the TT community.

When it comes down to the very gist of our issue, it's really just the Custom Music stuff. To me, modifying textures, physics, character voice noises, etc is common sense as far as being illegal. Everytime there's been an issue with the current rules, it's only the Custom Music part.

With regards to CTGP, same rules still apply with CTGP regarding the My Stuff folder. Just don't add any physics mods, textures, voice mods, etc.

Anything with ghosts should just be allowed imo.

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Rhodechill

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #21 - 12/03/17 at 07:28:50

Diamond wrote on 12/02/17 at 07:32:09:

^Even if we did ban custom music, you could still play that song on your computer or phone to help you time the moonjumps. There's really no effective way to guarantee that people won't do that.

Save them 1,000 clicks+, better audio quality, guaranteed sync'd.

make a new rule now and stick with it, keep fox's/swords/hibiki itimes for now tho?

dont ban players for custom music, instead, just make that one time not count

with texture hacks you can literally draw like, an arrow on the track. for example could draw a texture arrow on the track to line up for DKJP glitch rather than a marker ghost. The arrow would be more effective since it's longer than daisy.

some textures are illusions, like MG grass - you could edit that to just see the offroad bit which would suck.

You could also make offroad that doesnt slow you down much a bright red, and make offroad that slows you down a lot black, or something

"Make a rule saying that using custom music/textures to gain an advantage is banned. This would cover things like using alignment textures, disabling the sound for chains, etc. "

On the softban thing, players could say they just ENJOY songs with metronomes or something Roll Eyes

and thus claim it's musically appealing, not advantageous

We're technically all not supposed to have ghosts Wink

it's because of CTGP! we should all have not any more ghosts since wifi shutdown. now we have advantages with hacks by downloading any ghost we want on ctgp, even marker ghosts

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just the case that the other kart games just don't have the support to be modified to the extent that mkw is? I thought that's why this type of discussion didn't really happen much in the other MKs.

maybe a bigger team of hackers decided to tackle it. it was #4 all-time best selling nintendo game of all time or something at one point. it also had wifi. maybe attracted more people.

Quote:

by shipping Wiis to each other or meeting IRL.

obv a hassle. more importantly, time consuming. shipping a wii for every ghost download!? if you wanted to match player x who has 50 ghosts, prepare to ship 50 wiis maybe? that's like, less hours to play mkwii, plus u have to earn money to ship it which costs more than the vanilla experience and it takes more time away from playtime to EARN the money

Quote:

Then you might as well say that having internet is a mod,

no it's integrated into mkwii, it's intended on being used, it was buitl aroudn the internet, almost everyone has internet nowadays

we do place a lot of stress on what 'nintendo' intended, but they also deleted legit times, dont support glitch leaderboards, etc, point is, the community makes the rules, i think, but some of nintendo's intentions should be taken with a grain of salt

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RaminGER wrote on 08/14/09 at 12:01:14:

Syzygy [Tim] you are a fucking milkface i like to punch you in your fucking milkface ..

Why'd you cut holes in the face of your moon base? Don't you know about the temperature change?

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Diamond

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #22 - 12/03/17 at 08:24:24

Rhodechill wrote on 12/03/17 at 07:28:50:

Diamond wrote on 12/02/17 at 07:32:09:

^Even if we did ban custom music, you could still play that song on your computer or phone to help you time the moonjumps. There's really no effective way to guarantee that people won't do that.

Save them 1,000 clicks+, better audio quality, guaranteed sync'd.

You only have to click 2 buttons, which is nothing compared to the number of times you click buttons on your controller for every tt attempt anyways. I don't see how audio quality would be affected. It's already next to impossible to find a song that perfectly syncs with every button click you do on your controller, so I don't see how that's relevant, since you could get really close if you timed it with the start of the race anyway

Rhodechill wrote on 12/03/17 at 07:28:50:

Quote:

Then you might as well say that having internet is a mod,

no it's integrated into mkwii, it's intended on being used, it was buitl aroudn the internet, almost everyone has internet nowadays

And so is ghost sharing and downloading

Rhodechill wrote on 12/03/17 at 07:28:50:

we do place a lot of stress on what 'nintendo' intended, but they also deleted legit times, dont support glitch leaderboards, etc, point is, the community makes the rules, i think, but some of nintendo's intentions should be taken with a grain of salt

What is it that determines which of nintendo's intentions should be taken with a grain of salt?

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Hugo wrote on 07/31/17 at 15:13:47:

Well, it would be like rolling a die and it landing tails every time. After every roll the chance of it being tails becomes less and less, because eventually it will land on heads.

JawsTheShark wrote on 10/17/18 at 14:10:09:

Walter is Australian, right?

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BlazeMSX

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Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #23 - 12/03/17 at 16:15:04

I'm of the opinion that you either allow every use of the my stuff folder in the game, or you don't. Once a run with the my stuff folder on is allowed, then you have to consider any other time that uses the same mod, regardless of how the game is affected; this sets a precedent that someone can bend the rules for whatever reason. Because of this, I have to go back on my decision to count Hibiki's time, and I also have to remove Fox's 2:09.906 on Bowser's Castle for violating the rules that are already in place. Seeing how every other instance of custom music or texture hacks has been rightfully denied from the leaderboards, I can't bring myself to perpetuate a double standard. Hibiki now plays with the My Stuff folder off, so any WR run he sets in the future will be counted... Assuming he follows the rules this time Roll Eyes

. It's sad that his hard work isn't getting recognized officially, but Mr. Bean and Chadderz were very careful to make clear that playing with the my stuff folder on instantly nullifies a run (hence the big bold letters on the screen, and the inability to save ghosts). These are all things Hibiki was aware of, which is why he can't expect to be exempt from the rules that the community has followed for years.

However, I would really appreciate hearing what everyone else has to say on the matter, since I don't want to make my decision without other members of the community being able to voice their opinions. I'm just enforcing the rules here, so if anyone disagrees with them, we could continue having this conversation about changing it.

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Mario Kart Wii:
SNES Ghost Valley 2 - 52.796 (WR)
Mushroom Gorge - 1:41.256 (WR)
Bowser's Castle - 2:09.346 (WR)
Grumble Volcano - 1:51.726 (WR)
Moo Moo Meadows - 1:15.662 (Former WR)
DS Desert Hills - 1:32.451 (Former WR)
DS Yoshi Falls - 58.955 (Former WR/2nd WW)
N64 Sherbet Land - 1:43.723 (Former WR)

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Batman5112

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2852 days karting

Re: Proposal to update the rules of Custom Music
Reply #24 - 12/03/17 at 21:21:14

^ Not sure why this topic wasn't brought up when Fox made his run. Seems strange his run was added without concern at the time.

I do agree that the rules should remain unchanged. Nintendo's intentions are not part of the discussion. All the glitches in this game are not intended by Nintendo either. CTGP still allows for the player to play the game vanilla. It's such a simple and beautiful rule to follow: don't mod anything. How can people be so desperate to break this rule? Just follow it. I guarantee if custom bgm/textures had a much more potent advantage, no one would be in favor of allowing it. Allowing custom bgm/textures, even if there is no advantage to changing them (hypothetically speaking here), ignores the bigger picture that modding shouldn't be allowed. Period. In this game, and in every competitive game. Even if you consider CTGP a mod, how can you draw the conclusion to allow more mods? That's flawed reasoning imo. All in all, every suggestion made to update the rules has gray areas, while keeping it the way it is doesn't. That is the best rule to have in the long run. That's just me.

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