Mario Kart MB - FT Mafia: Town wins by doing absolutely nothing

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1000 - 08/27/17 at 07:33:24

I'm going to be busy this evening due to unforeseen events in my life. I'm sorry I've been away a lot, this visit my parents have made to my place is consuming way more of my time than I thought it would.

If at any point someone gets 6 votes on them, please stop posting and ping me on Discord. Also please stop posting as soon as time is up for day two. I will add a clock to the OP so you know exactly when this is.

I'll try to get the day's results up as soon as possible but please be patient. Thanks

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johnboy81918 King Offline helped 6972 people Atlanta, GA Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1001 - 08/27/17 at 07:33:45 I'm here now, and should be around for most of the day - gonna read back and see what I missed, but if anyone has something specific for me to address let me know.
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Shock NinjaShock Offline 5698 equations solved North Carolina Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1002 - 08/27/17 at 07:40:12 Countdown timer added to the OP, also here. I've also PMed shadow asking for help in case my hands are tied right as the day should be ending.
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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1003 - 08/27/17 at 08:00:50

Orange Slices wrote on 08/26/17 at 22:35:46:

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/26/17 at 20:09:00:

Orange:
Has not discussed N1.

This may not be 100% accurate, but this is how I believe N1 played out. First of all, the killing of Dan. This is solely based on the people who had Dan as their final vote, which will include their reason behind voting for him.

LewisRichards wrote on 08/24/17 at 13:59:33:

Leone wrote on 08/24/17 at 13:58:15:

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/24/17 at 13:51:07:

Leone wrote on 08/24/17 at 13:50:00:

PPL VOTE DAN LETS MAKE THE RNG 4 v 4 v 4!!!!11111!1

Not gonna happen, Orange and Third are lost causes.

TIMUR JOHN DAN BLITZ DO EET
i dont trust bray lynch bruh

I trust Leone more than anyone in this game
[Vote]Dan[/vote]

In this vote, TYG has not provided any other reasoning for voting Dan other than the fact that he trusts Leone. Well, if this is the case, let's take a look at his vote on Dan.

Leone wrote on 08/24/17 at 13:47:21:

SPORTSGUY NOOOO

[vote]DansGame[/vote]

Based on #663 and #664 I believe that Leone changed his vote from PAF to Dan just because Sportsguy voted for PAF, which makes absolutely no sense. With this being the reason why Leone voted for Dan then I have no idea why TYG would just follow his lead.

Finally, No Control.

no control wrote on 08/24/17 at 11:56:16:

DansGame wrote on 08/24/17 at 11:21:27:

All I want to know in response, from everyone else, is don't you also feel like the dumb character Leone is taking in most of his posts is hard to process and confusing and Quote:

not helpful to the town

. I think there is no more place for it in the game.

How do we solve this?
[vote]DansGame[/vote]

In Dan's post, he's stating that he believes there is no place in the game for Leone's confusing posts as they were: Quote:

not helpful to the town

. This in no way indicates that Dan believed Leone was town or scum, and did not even address his opinion on him. No, this would not have been solved by simply voting for Dan, where was the logic in that?

With that in mind, TYG's vote makes the least sense as it's backed off Leone's vote on him, and Leone only voted for Dan because SG had voted PAF. It could be possible that TYG was the one who killed Dan.

LewisRichards wrote on 08/22/17 at 21:42:18:

Orange Slices wrote on 08/22/17 at 17:06:26:

Leone wrote on 08/22/17 at 15:07:11:

Oh also hi TYG! I see you on but not posting yet, please do join this lovely party we're having! My super-duper radar of truthiness spots online-but-not-posting folk, check it out on the Mario Kart MB™'s front page!

This may mean that TYG is PM'ing another mafia but forgetting to post on this thread to cloak that evidence. If TYG doesn't post on this or any other thread today then I'll raise my suspicions.

"If TYG doesn't post about this"

This is a post about this... ta daaa I don’t really care about ypur suspicious though since I haven't really liked any of your posts so far and I think you could be maf lol

I know this post was already addressed but I wanted to bring it up again. The reason why I said this was because up until that point, TYG had not made any posts. Note how I say that if he didn't post on this or any other thread then I would raise my suspicions. The only phrase that he takes from this is "If TYG doesn't post about this", which I really don't like. Moreover, I never even said that I was suspicious of him in this post. I merely stated that if he didn't post that day I would become suspicious of him.

This is all I've got for N1 so far, I'll do a follow-up post when I can. Any comments?

uuuuh correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that you think TYG is Town and killed Dan in the night, but then proceed to say that TYG is suspicious to you? Don't really understand your argument

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TvK wrote on 05/27/14 at 03:07:54:

You should all listen to Timur. He's an onion.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1004 - 08/27/17 at 08:15:28

My reads have completely changed since that post. Yes I originally assumed TVK and TYG(Lewis) were Town because I know I'm Town and I didn't think Mafia would switch vote last minute off a town to another town. The John brought up a theory that I liked a ton and it changed my opinion Sad

go back and read it it's around page 35) basically it says if I (B.Ray) am town then TVK is trying to frame me by switching his vote last minute. Same with TYG potentially framing Orange (if orange is town). If Orange or I are Mafia then TVK or Lewis are saving their corresponding Maf person. This links me and TVK and Orange with Lewis. Suggesting that me OR Orange is Maf and TVK OR Lewis is Maf. I really like this theory because it's not predicated on me being Mafia like many other theories that have been brought up. I asked for everyone's opinion of this and not many people replied, Zoran had an interesting theory too.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1005 - 08/27/17 at 08:19:28

B.Ray wrote on 08/27/17 at 08:15:28:

My reads have completely changed since that post. Yes I originally assumed TVK and TYG(Lewis) were Town because I know I'm Town and I didn't think Mafia would switch vote last minute off a town to another town. The John brought up a theory that I liked a ton and it changed my opinion Sad

go back and read it it's around page 35) basically it says if I (B.Ray) am town then TVK is trying to frame me by switching his vote last minute. Same with TYG potentially framing Orange (if orange is town). If Orange or I are Mafia then TVK or Lewis are saving their corresponding Maf person. This links me and TVK and Orange with Lewis. Suggesting that me OR Orange is Maf and TVK OR Lewis is Maf. I really like this theory because it's not predicated on me being Mafia like many other theories that have been brought up. I asked for everyone's opinion of this and not many people replied, Zoran had an interesting theory too.

But, Orange wasn't really in any danger at EoD? It was basically between Brian, PAF and Dan. I don't think the TYG vote connects him in any way to Orange, unless you have another reason?

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TvK wrote on 05/27/14 at 03:07:54:

You should all listen to Timur. He's an onion.

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B.Ray Elite Offline I Love Mark 2.0! 2707 days karting Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1006 - 08/27/17 at 08:30:50 Yeah that's a good point but people were changing their votes so much maybe someone didn't want to take any chances OR John is an amazing Mafia player and came up with this whole thing to distract me and he completely got me in which case I tip my hat
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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1007 - 08/27/17 at 08:36:24

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/26/17 at 19:17:53:

no control wrote on 08/26/17 at 07:40:32:

B.Ray wrote on 08/26/17 at 06:05:48:

TYG: For same reasons as TVK EOD activity and jumping from me to PAF

Also, I know it looks way bad for me that TVK and TYG changed their votes last minute from me to town. The reason I trust them as town is because I know I'm town and I don't think mafia would change vote last minute from town to town unless they really thought they could get out a way better player. if
i'm wrong on this someone please say something!

TYG jumped to Dan.

I see another possibility. Maf voted for you because they thought you will not get enough heat and it was an easy way to escape the main wagons. However, once your wagon got going maf had to bail out.
Just because everything is going well for mafia, doesn't mean they will sit back and relax.

Interested do see your elaborations on the list you made.

Thinks that maf might have bailed on maf!Brian wagon. This implies Zoran sees a possibility of maf!TvK and/or maf!Lewis.

I never said i think that, i said i see another possibility. And i was talking to Brian from a perspective that he is town.
The 2nd sentence is almost 100% correct though, you just have to lose the "and" since that would be too risky.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1008 - 08/27/17 at 08:55:38

no control wrote on 08/27/17 at 08:36:24:

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/26/17 at 19:17:53:

no control wrote on 08/26/17 at 07:40:32:

B.Ray wrote on 08/26/17 at 06:05:48:

TYG: For same reasons as TVK EOD activity and jumping from me to PAF

Also, I know it looks way bad for me that TVK and TYG changed their votes last minute from me to town. The reason I trust them as town is because I know I'm town and I don't think mafia would change vote last minute from town to town unless they really thought they could get out a way better player. if
i'm wrong on this someone please say something!

TYG jumped to Dan.

I see another possibility. Maf voted for you because they thought you will not get enough heat and it was an easy way to escape the main wagons. However, once your wagon got going maf had to bail out.
Just because everything is going well for mafia, doesn't mean they will sit back and relax.

Interested do see your elaborations on the list you made.

Thinks that maf might have bailed on maf!Brian wagon. This implies Zoran sees a possibility of maf!TvK and/or maf!Lewis.

I never said i think that, i said i see another possibility. And i was talking to Brian from a perspective that he is town.
The 2nd sentence is almost 100% correct though, you just have to lose the "and" since that would be too risky.

Sorry, bad wording on my part - I wasn't trying to misrepresent your statement, just making a summary of people's thoughts. I agree that I do not see TvK/Lewis m/m - see below:
johnboy81918 wrote on 08/26/17 at 07:13:09:

B.Ray wrote on 08/26/17 at 07:07:18:

John i get how it makes me look suspicious but doesn't it also put them in a small spotlight. Do you think if i get lynched and show town that 1 of them is likely Maf? Would both of them being Maf be bad gameplay?

Yes, I think those 2 votes are suspicious regardless of your alignment. If you are scum, then those votes saved scum. If you are town, then those votes made you *look* like scum for the exact reasoning from the previous sentence. I do find it unlikely that they are BOTH scum, if only because they could have coordinated so as to not make BOTH of them look bad...since that coordination doesn't seem to have happened, it doesn't seem like a great scum *team* to look into, for now.

By the way, what do think of my crazy Lafungo theory? Am I insane, or is it worth even *some* consideration?

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Fant0m wrote on 12/17/11 at 15:59:31:

You could also do it just because you enjoyed hopping for no reason.

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johnboy81918 King Offline ate 6972 donuts Atlanta, GA Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1009 - 08/27/17 at 09:08:09 Also, this is really shitty timing for TvK to not be around...I know he announced it before the game even started, but still...
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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1010 - 08/27/17 at 09:12:39

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/26/17 at 19:17:53:

no control wrote on 08/26/17 at 11:12:11:

There must have been 2 attacks tonight, i don't see 1 attack doing all this. Maf went through with an attack, 2nd attack came either from PAF or from neutral player. I really don't think town did this.

I also don't think we would get that info if it was a bodyguard/doctor thing.

WOW I DIDN'T SEE THIS BEFORE!! Zoran, what do you mean that 2nd attack might have been from PAF?? Do you mean from PAF himself or from someone on the wagon?

I think there is a possibility that PAF had some kind of dying shoot. Look at his reads:

P.A.F.625 wrote on 08/24/17 at 09:32:48:

My reads (in town% (50%=neutral)):
Dan=30%
Brian=35%
TvK=40%
Sportsguy=40%
Leone=50% (could be jester/neutral???)
Thiradell=50%
TYG=50%
John=60%
Orange=60%
Timur=65%
Zoran=70%

Earlier in the day he stated this:

P.A.F.625 wrote on 08/24/17 at 03:47:15:

My wagon probably isn't 100% town.

And gave na explanation on that wagon:

P.A.F.625 wrote on 08/24/17 at 05:02:33:

People on my wagon, scummiest to townish:
TvK - is acting the same as previous games in which he was scum... I've said several times I can't get in his head.
Thiradell - I can see someone who hasn't lurked in this MB, as townie, see me as scum even with his lame reasoning. But there's still a decent chance he's scum and he isn't scumhunting as hard as Zoran. (I think I just analyse this guy better, actually).
Zoran - is acting the same as previous games in which he was town. I'd like to assume I'd notice a difference in behavior if he were scum, but I can't be sure since I never seen him play as scum.

From this it is obvious that PAF saw both TvK and Dan as scummy. This is why i think it is possible he might have had something to do with this.

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/27/17 at 08:55:38:

By the way, what do think of my crazy Lafungo theory? Am I insane, or is it worth even *some* consideration?

My reasoning was Lafungo is a mod, so that would indicate some power, didn't connect it to that post you quoted, but i don't think this is crazy at all.

Other possibility i see is that it was doing of a neutral player, perhaps as Timur suggested a serial killer.

Zwiebel wrote on 08/26/17 at 10:56:32:

or that there is some sort of SK in the game. SK would also fit with the wording "stabbed".

Then again, I still have no clue why Maf would kill Dan

I think Dan was more likely a maf kill. That way Maf put almost everyone into the circle of suspects, basically only John looks good.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1011 - 08/27/17 at 09:28:43

@Leone if TvK isn't actually bussing orange like your theory says and only one of them could be maf who do you vote? I guess what I'm getting at is would it be a safer lynch to just lynch orange and then go after TvK from there. How likely is it that TvK is maf if orange is town or how likely is it that orange is maf if TvK is town?

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1012 - 08/27/17 at 09:36:54

no control wrote on 08/26/17 at 16:25:13:

Town lean

TvK - Already had a slight town lean on him D1, started strong on D2 and appears like he has been a victim of an attack. Not quite sure what to think of that yet, would really like to see some more discussion about that. Most likely this was an attack on town imo. Hope he will pick up his activity tomorrow (RL).

Has your view of TvK changed at all since this post? If you're saying the attack on TvK was an attack on town, then isn't it more likely that the attack came from scum?

I really don't think that a townie *actively targeted* TvK. If TvK was attacked by a townie, I think it has something to do with PAF's role. In this event, the attack *is not alignment indicative* for TvK. Likewise, if TvK was attacked by a neutral, it's also not alignment indicative for him. The only attack on TvK that is alignment indicative is if the attack came from maf, which obviously makes him not maf (could be town or neutral) in this scenario.

So, if you think the maf kill was on Dan, then the attack on TvK has no bearing on his alignment (unless you think maf were able to attempt 2 kills last night, which is certainly a possibility). Once you remove the attack from your thought process in considering his alignment, do you give him a townread or a scumread?

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Fant0m wrote on 12/17/11 at 15:59:31:

You could also do it just because you enjoyed hopping for no reason.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1013 - 08/27/17 at 10:01:40

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/27/17 at 09:36:54:

If you're saying the attack on TvK was an attack on town, then isn't it more likely that the attack came from scum?

My wording is a bad here, but what i meant when i said this was an attack on town is that i thought it probably didn't came from PAF, but from neutral player.

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/27/17 at 09:36:54:

I really don't think that a townie *actively targeted* TvK. If TvK was attacked by a townie, I think it has something to do with PAF's role. In this event, the attack *is not alignment indicative* for TvK. Likewise, if TvK was attacked by a neutral, it's also not alignment indicative for him. The only attack on TvK that is alignment indicative is if the attack came from maf, which obviously makes him not maf (could be town or neutral) in this scenario.

So, if you think the maf kill was on Dan, then the attack on TvK has no bearing on his alignment (unless you think maf were able to attempt 2 kills last night, which is certainly a possibility).

I agree.

johnboy81918 wrote on 08/27/17 at 09:36:54:

Once you remove the attack from your thought process in considering his alignment, do you give him a townread or a scumread?

Has your view of TvK changed at all since this post?

It has changed because he hasn't posted posted anything for a long time. He is at 50-50 for me.

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B.Ray Elite Offline I Love Mark 2.0! seen 2707 mj vids Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1014 - 08/27/17 at 10:25:50 [vote]orange[/vote]
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no control Legend Offline ate 6571 donuts Croatia,Zagreb Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1015 - 08/27/17 at 10:33:51 Zwiebel, how did your reads change since the start of D2? 738
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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1016 - 08/27/17 at 10:43:48

why haven't John and TYG voted

I read Leone's TvK wall. It was striking me as over-analysis but it is noteworthy that he basically spent all his time picking on a certain group of players. Now he basically hasn't posted day 2 (as he said he wouldn't), so we still have virtually nothing from him re: everyone else in the game, except for a list of reads on #724 which isn't very helpful.

Regarding the him coaching Orange theory, I don't really like it because he was doing the same sort of grilling with Leone early on, with PAF in the middle of the day, and then with Brian later on. Him saying "maybe you have a scumread that isn't Brian/Orange" to Sportsguy just made me think he wants Sportsguy to give a potential scumread that isn't one of the obvious top two wagons.

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Thiradell Elite Offline mmmmk 6357 days karting Denver Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1017 - 08/27/17 at 10:44:52 that comes from me having never played a game with TvK, not sure how different my perspective would be if I had experience. I think there are better candidates for a day 2 lynch
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B.Ray Elite Offline I Love Mark 2.0! 2707 days karting Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1018 - 08/27/17 at 10:45:07 If you are one of the people that puts a lot into the "Day 1 wagons are alway town" philosophy it would make no sense to lynch me. My wagon got just as big as Dan's later into the day. Just food for thought. I would obviously prefer not to get lynched
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Thiradell Elite Offline mmmmk seen 6357 mj vids Denver Gender:	Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2 Reply #1019 - 08/27/17 at 11:01:16 hey Zwiebel, can you give us your thoughts? what do you think about Leone's big post on you? why are you voting for B.Ray when you put so much pressure on Orange yesterday and your biggest scumleans were him and TYG (and Dan)? Why did TYG suddenly go to neutral in #738?
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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1020 - 08/27/17 at 11:03:38

no control wrote on 08/27/17 at 10:01:40:

It has changed because he hasn't posted posted anything for a long time. He is at 50-50 for me.

From signup thread:
Quote:

I'll play too. I might have very limited access this weekend, but I hope I can at least get a few posts in if the game starts before then.

And reminded here:
TvK wrote on 08/25/17 at 14:37:57:

Right I also have to say that I probably will have very limited access to internet the next 48 hours (pretty much the entire day 2), as I had already said when I signed up for this game. I'll be on for at least a couple of hours now. I hope to be back before the end of day but I can't promise that. I also will try to get at least a couple of posts in while I am away.

And finally here:
TvK wrote on 08/25/17 at 18:19:35:

I'm off to bed now. I'll have a bit of time when I wake up, but after that I'm leaving and I'm not sure yet when I'm going to be able to come back to this thread. I really hope there's a good amount of discussion while I'm asleep.

I'd rather see your view of him based on his posts and his votes - it's obviously unlike him to be inactive but he warned of this before the game even started so I, for one, won't hold it against him. What I will hold against him is that EoD1 vote. Like I said earlier, if *not* for the attack on him during N1, he should have been one of the primary scumreads today for most people (along with Brian, Orange, and Lewis imo). I think too many of us got blinded thinking he was attacked by scum and failed to consider the implications of any other type of attack. If he wasn't attacked by scum, he goes right back into the scumread category.

The more I reread Orange's posts, I can't help but feel that he's just noob town. The flip-flopping under pressure, lack of good reasonings, etc...yes those are characteristics of scum, but based on EoD1 I think today's primary targets should be contained within (Brian, Sportsguy, TvK, Lewis).

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Fant0m wrote on 12/17/11 at 15:59:31:

You could also do it just because you enjoyed hopping for no reason.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1021 - 08/27/17 at 11:09:02

no control wrote on 08/27/17 at 10:33:51:

Zwiebel, how did your reads change since the start of D2? 738

To be honest, not much has changed for me, I'll list it anyway

Brian, Orange - strong maf lean. Same reasons I had before. None of them have really concinved me from the opposite today, but I have to admit that Brian has put at least some effort in his defence today, while Orange still kinda feels like not wanting to post much. I still favor lynching Brian today tho, I think they are both likely to flip Maf + I think a Brian lynch tells us a lot more than an Orange lynch would, especially with all the EoD 1 things that happened.

Sportsguy, TYG - slight Maf lean. SG looks bad for his voting history and the fact that he hasn't really made the impression to me that he's actively trying to help Town. TYG looks bad for his EoD 1 and his general lack of contribution D2 so far. He has 10 posts of which 2 are literally "page glitch" posts. As I pointed out in my big post about TYG, there are some things that also speak against TYG being Maf, that's why I'm putting him on slight lean.

Zoran, Thiradell - slight Town lean. Third has done a lot of digging today and my read on zoran hasn't really changed from my last post.

TvK, John - high Town lean, because their play seems pro-Town to me, especially John's D2 gives me a very strong Town vibe, along with the EoD 1 wagon onto Brian makes them my highest Town leans.

Leone - I'm still confused by Leone...I see 0 reason for him to play this game like he does if he was Town, but I also think that he has done a lot of digging and definitely brought up some good points in this game(along with some I still don't understand or agree with). I just think that Leone would not have the guts to play like this if he was either Maf or Town, so I still believe that he is a Third Party.

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TvK wrote on 05/27/14 at 03:07:54:

You should all listen to Timur. He's an onion.

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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1022 - 08/27/17 at 11:11:01

Thiradell wrote on 08/27/17 at 10:43:48:

why haven't John and TYG voted

I'm still on board with lynching Brian. I would have put this vote down last night but then I came up with my crazy ass Lafungo theory (please read and reply if you haven't already) and I wanted to think more about TvK before casting a vote.

[vote]B.Ray[/vote]

This should put Brian at 4 votes, 2 away from a lynch. DO NOT END THE DAY EARLY, GIVE EVERYONE A CHANCE TO TALK.

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Fant0m wrote on 12/17/11 at 15:59:31:

You could also do it just because you enjoyed hopping for no reason.

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Zwiebel

Legend

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Kmaccy-Fan

helped 6670 people
Stuttgart
Gender: male

Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1023 - 08/27/17 at 11:14:34

Thiradell wrote on 08/27/17 at 11:01:16:

hey Zwiebel, can you give us your thoughts? what do you think about Leone's big post on you? why are you voting for B.Ray when you put so much pressure on Orange yesterday and your biggest scumleans were him and TYG (and Dan)? Why did TYG suddenly go to neutral in #738?

Most of the things you ask I just explained in my read post.

About Leone's big post, he keeps saying that I'm trying to "push a narrative" on all my points where I try to pressure people more or try to ask people if they do or do not agree with my points(or points of other people). I would call that gathering information or asking for other arguments for or against it and not "pushing a narrative", so it feels like he is attacking points in my play that I would say are positive for Town in my eyes.

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TvK wrote on 05/27/14 at 03:07:54:

You should all listen to Timur. He's an onion.

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Thiradell

Elite

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mmmmk

fell 6357 times for marty
Denver
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Re: Forum-themed Mafia: Day 2
Reply #1024 - 08/27/17 at 11:16:41

Leone's basically saying Zwiebel/TvK/Orange
over B.Ray/TYG

I don't agree with everything he's saying about TvK
and I don't get a towny vibe from B.Ray OR TYG

Sportsguy said
"I like everyone to vote for someone and i don't really like votes on someone late in the game when its obvious that person won't be lynched."

then dropped a vote on Zoran with super weak reasoning and said he won't be back. His main reason for thinking B.Ray is town is because day 1 bandwagons are usually wrong, implying that whoever gets picked for a day 1 bandwagon gets automatic credit as town. He does say B.Ray came off as towny but uses the d1 bandwagon as his primary reason.

so his vote's gonna be wasted on Zoran, we have nine votes, right now Leone is voting TvK but I don't really think anyone else will (except maybe TYG if he intends to pull the same sheeping thing he pulled at end of day 1).

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You'll go backwards, but then you'll go forwards again

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