I just wanted to add another point here. In SMK and MKSC, the top people modify their controllers to gain MTs where they wouldn't normally be possible, sometimes shaving seconds off their time. If that's legal, I don't think pausing, which requires no modification to do so and only provides sub-second advantages (unless, maybe, you use it to play in slo-mo -- which I think should be allowed) should be banned.

Both ZZMTs in MKSC and SMK, and the pause "exploits" in MKW are possible without modifying the controller or pausing. But they are much harder. So if ZZMTs are permitted, why should pausing be banned?

I know someone will bring up the point that the same advantage in MKSC and SMK a modified d-pad provides can also be achieved by using a worn out controller, and that's the whole reason d-pad mods are allowed in the first place. "You're comparing apples to oranges", you may say. I don't think I am here. Most top-tier SMK and MKSC players use a modded controller. They mod theirs to get the advantage without having to wait for theirs to wear out. It's come to the point where mods are allowed because other people use mods, not because it happens naturally. All top players mod their controllers in those games -- so by my argument in the first two paragraphs, if these mods are allowed, why shouldn't pausing be allowed?

It's not that we want to force the top players into a hefty protocol. For a while videos were accepted 100% proof and then people started faking videos so things had to change. Better to have less players and keep the charts legitimate and fair than it is to have everyone and their brother on the site when some of those can and will cheat. Are there cheaters on the website right now? Possibly, I don't even have videos of all of my times (only the really good ones) so in theory a lot of people ranked low could cheat and get away with it. But no one really cheats to be ranked 150th so that's why the rules for lower ranked players are less stringent.

You don't need to stream unless you get to that very high level, and even then streaming isn't really hard. If you have a laptop with a built in webcam you can stream. No one's going to question your timesheet unless you either hit really good times or make ridiculously fast progress. I doubt adding another rule would make people quit playing the game. The reason pauses are allowed in real time speedruns is that they affect your real time. It's fundamentally different from MKW which bases the time on in game time. Pausing mid run because your mom asks you to do the laundry is much different than pausing mid run in order to hit a much harder strategy. Being difficult to police shouldn't be a reason not to implement it, most of the top players live stream often and pausing would be easily detectable if they do that. It's also really easy based on when the pause occurs to know if it's a legitimate pause because they have to do something or a pause because they're trying to hit something.

But thanks for your opinions, seriously I mean that.

Jazzy wrote on 05/02/16 at 16:55:57:


You answered your own point, this is apples to oranges definitely. The reason why ZZMT's are allowed is because it's possible to get a pro-ZZMT controller by simply playing enough. You say it's allowed because other people do it, so if all the top players in MKW use TAS, should we just allow everyone to use TAS? Where's the fun in that? What would happen if pausing temporarily halted the timer? Would you argue that it should be allowed because everyone else can do it just as easily? That should not be the approach taken on this.

Robertvz wrote on 05/02/16 at 17:12:40:


I don't get your point here. My point is that ZZMT originated from an unfair advantage players were getting from worn out controllers, and that it would be unfair to ban times driven with a worn out controller. But one thing led to another and now, ZZMTs are mainly obtained by modding their controller. It was a chain of events that was started and couldn't be stopped.

For TAS that "chain of events" hasn't started. TAS is still banned and will always be.

So no, TAS shouldn't be allowed. Which puts me back at the ZZMT vs pausing argument: as I've said, if ZZMT is allowed, shouldn't pausing be?

Robertvz wrote on 05/02/16 at 17:12:40:


No, but that's not the case here.

No, the logic itself is valid. Just because there's a false premise doesn't mean the logic is invalid. You say everyone out of the top players uses modded ZZMT controllers for MKSC and SMK, but you're saying everyone is allowed to because the top players are allowed to. So who allows the top players to? That's where the rule and decision has to come in.

I've never seen someone with a controller that automatically pauses at the most convenient times. So let's not start this chain of events and kill it before it begins. ZZMT can be done accidental because of worn out controllers, pausing never is. If pausing gives you any type of advantage that not pausing doesn't have, wouldn't it be smarter to just blanket ban it? Whether that be allowing a frame perfect position switch or if it in some fantasy world halted the timer, an advantage is an advantage and it shouldn't matter that everyone can do it without hacking the game.

No it's not easily enforceable, it's also not really enforceable to ban custom music and textures. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make it a rule. It's obvious when someone pauses for an advantage sake and when someone pauses because they legit have to pause the game.

Nice formal logic there. Yes your logic was valid, but that doesn't mean your premises are true. Like the
m -> p premise is just an opinion, just because you can derive p to be true in your proof there, doesn't mean that the premise you started with is true.

I'm all for pausing for nerves sakes, or if your mom shows up into your room for something, or if you have an itch on your face, etc.
But using the home button, or pausing for alignments, frame perfect control stick shifts (like the rPG technique) seems questionable, the two former usages definitely being broken.
Imo (after reading Cole's post), pausing should only be allowed for nerves, itches to scratch, chores to do mid run etc.

I'm fully aware the m -> p is just an opinion.I stated a few times that whether you agree with the opinion determines that my original point is true or not. However, there is another conclusion that the logic makes: Brett's agrument that my original point is invalid is flawed, and unlike the former conclusion reached by the logic, this conclusion is without condition because we agree on all the assumptions made.

Before we go further, let me just say that we're all here to make friends, not enemies. I'm feeling this debate is spiraling down into a rabbit-hole. So let me just clarify my stance here.

I believe pausing for technique #1 (slo-mo effect) should be disallowed altogether.

I believe techniques #2 and #3 should be allowed in SC races. I'm not as sure about non-SC races, this is the one thing I can be pretty easily convinced either way.

Techniques #4 (nerves) and #5 (pausing without advantage) I see no reason to ban. Doing so is just more rules without a solid reason to have them.

I'd like to see where our positions on the matter overlap before debating further. The best way to handle this is through organized thoughts, not by throwing arguments everywhere without paying attention and acting on emotions.

Just an idea:

MK Wii Rankings

SRs for TAS/Pausing
SRs for Combined
SRs for NonSC-only

Previous times done with pauses should still count but removed to the new category?!
In SMK we already have 3 categories: Non-NBT, NBT, and Trick/Glitch/SC/Whatever...
Personally I think all pausing/HOME button/Start button should be banned in every Mario Kart, or create a new category to put them if you like so much pausing your games...
If you had to pause your run because a call etc, just restart!
I play a lot of MMORPG, there is no pause, there is no excuse, no matter how many calls you get...

Poll added.

Robertvz wrote on 04/30/16 at 18:12:18:



I'm gonna go as far as to say that pausing to calm your nerves is an advantageous strategy for certain people, and thus, imo, should not be allowed. And when you leave it paused for so long, it doesn't matter what the real life problem is. You're still calming your nerves.

So my point in other words: pausing should only be allowed when the duration is a few seconds or so, and the reason for pausing is genuine of course.

@Brett I will say once more that I'm aware that one of the premises of the proof is not provable. I've said at least three times that whether the argument is valid depends on whether you agree with my original point. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough and I apologize. I wasn't even trying to prove that my original ZZMT argument is correct there, just illustrate my point in a different way. The purpose of that logical argument was to show the difference between my ZZMT argument and your TAS argument, that their form is slightly different and that you can't compare the exact same way. Again, sorry if that wasn't clear.

My basis for allowing #2 and #3 in SC but not non-SC is that to me, the SC rules are supposed to have minimal rules. As long as it's not TAS'd or modded, there should be as few rules as possible. To me pausing is just another feature of the game that can be used to your advantage. This argument doesn't exist for non-SC which is why I don't care as much either way.

At this point, after waking up, I'm admittedly not near as concerned about #2 and #3. While I still think they should be allowed in SC (maybe or maybe not non SC) I'm not near as concerned about this issue as I am about #4 and #5, which I believe should be allowed. Like Brett said, the line in the sand has to be drawn somewhere and isn't a clear cut decision. I don't think we should be banning pauses altogether. On the other hand I get the impression that everyone here is against #1.

As of now I'd rather not debate this anymore -- I don't even play this game, don't forget. I think I've made my opinions heard at this point. The reason I'm not as concerned about #2 and #3 is that they are less of a concern for the other games I do play, and also because I realize that trying to argue them further is just wasting my time repeating myself. To me the arguments for and against #2 and #3 are weaker than for or against #1, #4 and #5. This is a big reason why I think we should be drawing a line on either side of this weak point (again, I'm not as concerned about which side of #2 and #3 ends up being picked) than banning pausing altogether.

So I'm just going to conclude this by saying, once again, that we need to be careful about the decision we make. If we for whatever reason decide to ban all pausing, will there be some people that go out of their way to try to enforce it? Are you going to request higher levels of proof to prove that the run wasn't paused mid race, and only for that purpose? These are the kinds of questions we need to ask and try to end up with a decision that leads to the the right answers. I'm just going to leave it at this: whatever we decide, we don't want it to make this community worse than it already is.

I made the comment saying I couldn't believe this is a discussion because, personally, I find it ridiculous. It's just my opinion. It doesn't invalidate what I said just because of me getting a little annoyed. I just found it pretty laughable that one solution is to literally ban pausing. That honestly baffles me. Yes, I've seen the reasons behind it, I've also seen Jazzy's very well put together responses; I've seen it all. But I still can't understand why it is better to ban all pausing as opposed to doing it case-by-case. What is the problem with a case-by-case system? Isn't it obvious that there are so many reasons to pause the game legitimately?

You can't just ban people because there's a slight possibility of it being used illegitimately.
Worse, if this follows the "one offense = permanent ban" system, that would be a little concerning.

"Oh yeah, I can't ever be counted by the MKW community because I uh... well I paused the game once while I set a TT."

It seems like unnecessary policing and will drive even more people away.


A case-by-case system has so many more benefits and means that all players are treated with a different case and a chance to have their say, rather than silenced by the harsh rules that should not apply to certain cases.


Shock wrote on 05/02/16 at 15:59:25:


Actually, no. I said I would not follow this rule. I didn't state why. I just said that I wouldn't. Nobody doesn't follow a rule because it can't be enforced. That barely makes any sense.
A main and important factor as to why I would not and can not follow this rule is because I frequently physically need to pause the game; I have Tourette Syndrome which means that I get frequent tics. These are especially prevalent during times of nerves like playing TTs. So, I often have to pause the game to get these done. And hell, they sometimes take a long time. Often I end up restarting. But when I don't, I would have a registered pause in my run.
This is exactly why we need it to be done individually: because it is not fair to ban everyone when clearly there are lots of different reasons to pause: and only a minor selection of these are exploitative.


I definitely understand why pausing could be considered cheating in some circumstances, and that isn't what I think the main problem is here. I think the danger is creating a ban on all pausing for every player, rather than a predetermined, clear, sensible, and case-by-case system.

Also, please don't act like the rules are in place simply because you say so. "But thanks for your opinions," seriously? No, it isn't one person who decides all the rules and opposing opinions are simply thanked.


I'm ending up repeating myself, and I don't feel this can go very far. But if anyone can give any advantages for a complete ban instead of something case-by-case, I'd like to hear. It seems pretty evident at this moment that pausing to perform a minor (and also, in-game) exploit is much less common than pausing to do something else. It seems to me that this is just another thing to ban straight-up in the MKW world despite the overwhelming legitimate use of this feature.
There are way too many reasons to pause it, and I could provide a seemingly endless list of things you may need to do while TTing. In my case, it is crucial to pause sometimes, and I will not let my problems interfere with my game simply because literally all pausing – innocent or not – is banned.

Honestly though, what is the issue with looking at individual cases?

Nobody said to ban pausing altogether why is this even a discussion.