Hey guys.

I've been thinking this for a while and it's about time something is said about this: we need a complete overhaul regarding the TT rules and discussions. The way things are right now, we really don't get anything done and whatever arbitrary decisions we make regarding removing players, making exceptions for rules, reinstating players, etc. tends to result in animosity and fear that some people, each with their biases, are wielding inordinate influence over the community. Look at the way Tyler, Jeff, and Nim's cases are treated - we've argued but never really made any progress.

So here's a proposal - there needs to be a group of people who are responsible for these matters. If we could designate, preferably through voting, a few people to take on the job - perhaps five or so (preferably an odd number), it would make the process a whole lot easier. This doesn't mean everyone else won't get a say, but the final decision should be made by these people, since it's better than having either really messy conversations and not reaching a conclusion, or having one single person in charge of the individual TT sites having the final say for every decision despite the possible biases.

Another thing we need to do is really just make the TT rules more known! A lot of wifi mains who TT a few tracks simply do not know of the TT rules and are completely oblivious to them, particularly with custom music. Thus, I feel like if we standardize the rules (I've made a prototype version of the rules here), it would be a lot easier to make them known and to get it across to the community at large.

One more thing - if everyone is opposed to it for the PP, I think it should at least make a difference for the top 10 charts and perhaps mkwrs. I just feel that we need to actually take that step to get things done rather than sit around all day complaining about the community and why it's shit without actually doing anything to improve it.

Please discuss this. What are your thoughts on the proposed "TT council" of sorts? If you agree with it, who would you nominate? What would you think about agreeing on an official set of TT rules?

This is certainly a good idea, but since I'm an MK8 player, I don't exactly have much of a view on this. Good luck with your idea though

Seems like a reasonable idea

I think there should be some rules that decide whether someone is going to be counted or not and not by the opinion of anyone. Kind of like laws, people don't go to prison because of someone's opinion.
The counsil would be a group of people who have experience and knowledge on these rules.

People that come to my mind for that are Cole, NMeade, Sorozone.

The mkwii section seems shitty because some people don't know how to state their opinion, imo. In nearly every debate I see on this forum has a person making direct judgements towards others just because they disagree and the discussion becomes a mess. "Your reasoning is stupid", "you are immature", "Grow up" and such phrases are so common.

This idea admittedly has some potential.

Also picking the council shouldn't be the basis of "ok let's just pick the 5 best TTers and call it a day". I'd much rather have 5 people that I know would be completely unbiased and have some knowledge of TTs (Sorozone comes to mind) than I would have 5 people that are the best at TTs.

Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. If you decide to do TTs and want your times to be recognized you should at the very least look up the rules. Custom textures/music aren't a ban anyway if I recall correctly, but if you do any times with them they simply won't count. It's really not hard to find the rules somewhere.

By the way I respect the fact that you actually took the time to come up with a solution, most people around here just argue that the system is flawed but then don't come up with anything to rectify the problems that they say exists. Personally I'm of the mentality that if you cheat once you're banned, since there's no way you can accidentally do it, whether it's notorious compulsive cheating like Black or a one time thing like several people, cheating is cheating and I think the rule for that is fine. The problem comes from cases like Nim where we can't prove guilt (thus can't ban him) but also there's a good amount of doubt surrounding him to the point where counting his times is bound to make people uncomfortable, especially when he's done nothing to prove himself. Cases like these are where people are inconsistent in their judgement calls and it leads to problems like you just saw in the WRs topic.

Good to see people discussing this and weighing in on this

Robertvz wrote on 09/25/15 at 11:40:54:


I agree to a good extent, however, I'd also argue that active players are the most apt to make the final distinction. Sorozone is a great and admirable person, but he just doesn't seem super active with the community and I'm not sure if everyone like him even keeps up with the latest game developments these days. I think players like Cole would be the prime example of people I'd like on there, if this idea gets through.

As for the "banned players" who have been brought up, I myself do personally think that less serious offenders (meaning ones that didn't keep cheating for a prolonged period of time, admitted to it and contributed towards the community) should be able to be allowed back on a track-by-track basis (TT conditionals, if you will). However, I'm fairly certain that a large chunk of the community is against it, so it's not the most major of our concerns right now and I doubt this will change.

Kona wrote on 09/25/15 at 10:16:57:


No.  They are told they will be permanently banned if they cheat.  They cheat anyway despite knowing this.  No sympathy from me.

Arrow wrote on 09/26/15 at 08:55:25:


Don't tell me they actually taught you exactly that in school, even if they did, you shouldn't believe everything taught there.
There is no optimal system, neither democracy nor dictatorships can br considered as the best or the worst possibility as it all depends on who does it and how exactly it is done. In theory dictatorships can be very fitting aswell, it's only that in the past most of those people just abused their power which is why most dictatorships went wrong.
Tito e.g. is a example for a dictatorship that actually worked fairly well.

And I agree with Brett, if this TT council thingy really gets done, then we should by no means just vote for people based on their skill level in this game. It should rather be unbiased, fair, mature and experienced people.

MaxLAD wrote on 09/26/15 at 15:10:17:


Dude, that's a dumb reason to put them back on the charts. Should we let them get back on and give them a full pardon from their ban because of an excuse like "I was a child at that time and I didn't mean to cheat because I was too young to learn right from wrong"? They knew they were cheating. Why else would someone cheat. They wanted to achieve fame by deliberately fooling us. We shouldn't have to write "don't cheat in this game" as a rule for little kids to understand. That should have been obvious for them anyways. Their common sense should have pointed that out for them. They simply just chose to ignore it though. Playing innocent is not an excuse for what they did. They should accept what they did wrong and deal with the consequences like everyone else.

Well, there's a difference. It's usually not hard to tell when someone genuinely feels remorse, is much more mature, and is willing to contribute towards the community, so I believe this sort of stuff should be made on a case-by-case basis. If a player who had just gotten the game, completely unaware of the competitive community, cheated a single time when they were like 10 years old and are 17 or so now, I don't really think it should hold them back. The online community has a 2 year rule, I think, which I feel would work well for players whose cheating wasn't systematic (see: Walter, Jorge, Mander). Again, I'm aware that my voice is in the minority here.

Cheating isn't the main subject matter, though, so please get back to the topic at hand.

I'm glad to see this thread, and for it to be proposed by someone that does care about the community.

As for the "TT council," I'd say gather a mix of perspectives, not lean to one side (so not 5 best TTers, and not 5 expert, unbiased people). I'd pick Soro, Cole, Mr.L, NMeade/Sword, Fox/Silver. It should be clear as well that these five people are not to agree/disagree with one another. We don't want them bickering against each other. They state their perspectives, do the decision-making, and that's it.

Diogo wrote on 09/26/15 at 17:26:29:



That is certainly more comforting.

And isn't Mr. L inactive?

Silver, it's very easy to fake sympathy via text online ...

The problem with including players like Soro or Mr. L is that they aren't really active, and I'm not even certain they keep up with the latest developments. They might have the knowledge, but I'm not sure they'd be able to adapt it to this time.

The player that immediately comes to mind is Cole for me, and Fox/Havoc/Liam might have the know-how as well.

Jeff, stop throwing around baseless accusations. I do believe you are legit but it doesn't give you a right to shit on other people without any solid backing.

By the way, it does seem like most people here are comfortable with the idea, so I'll put up a poll regarding the proposed system and keep track of the people that are nominated or mentioned.