Antistar wrote on 12/09/11 at 04:41:43:


Is that now i've been "overthrown"?

Please also do not quote me where I have not written that. If you want to try to paraphrase and interpret what i say then do so. Dont twist what i've written. I'm saying accutely that you have negatively attributed to how the community has reacted through this process (largely in your approach as Vorch expressed). And if I were to look at how to people are behaving towards the community i would say that fenner is being the more positive out of both of you. If that isn't a wake up call then i dont know what is.

@karel, your analogy is not to disimilar from me saying that an athelete who steals are car and goes to prison for a week is still allowed to partake in the next competition as the competition doesn't hold the car theft in regard.

I am also concerned that we are now taking any other ranking site into consideration when looking at players and judging if they should be allowed on our site. I think what happens here is relevant, outside of that its none of our business. Im not looking for a response to this as i know others will view that differently and those views have been aired. I'm just mentioning this in direct response Aprils update. Upto now my views have been made as the site Admin, now i'm speaking just as a player.

One of the stronger arguments I have heard put forth is that Terrence's presence devalues the site and is destructive to the community.
Throughout this entire ordeal, he has been friendlier than many, even though you might even be somewhat justified in saying he has reason to be less amiable in spirit in light of what has come his way.

And yet, I have seen so much vitriol towards Terrence's persona and being, where this, if ever rightly, should have been directed at his gaming legitimacy and prowess. I thoroughly was taken aback by the fact that people suddenly felt they had the right to insult Terrence every opportunity there was - some even going as far as creating mocking YouTube videos. I would have thought those to ever have that sort of mindset would have grown out of it by this stage in their lives.

To me, the constant insulting and belittling, even at times when there was no form provokation - has always been a lot worse. Perhaps not directly to the community, but a lot worse, period. In hindsight I think this might prove worse for the community than anything Terrence may achieve to that same end. There's probably lots to be said and desired for Terrence's posting habits, but the same applies to everyone else. If people can start personal tirades under the pretense of  authenticity aspiration and ambition, Terrence will need to work a lot harder for a match.
It feels as though some seem to think that this community is a sort of la-la-law-exempt no-fault state in the regard that people seem to believe any means justify the ends, and what happens in doesn't really affect a person's life. (Times validity ranking accuracy above all - the one true thing to be abided by at any cost. Curiously, this is utopic now that Terrence's and others' times are gone from the site.)

I feel a lot of people are more upset with Terrence and his spending time here, than any of his cheating. Many seem to want him banned from the boards, largely on the basis of finding him annoying I'll boldly assume, since no one specifies viable reasons for wanting him banned since his readmittance. I have said this before, but as part of my above reasoning I feel it bears repeating: None of the people who wanted their times removed from the site have stated, at least to the point that it has appeared to be their bearing or even partial reason, that they don't want to be on the site because of an undeserving champion.

He was seemingly removed because people saw the need/took the chance to raise the issue before a different authoritative figure (whose stance they could readily know from reading past arguments and instances), not because Terrence has misstepped since being readmitted to the site, or because anything particularly incriminating with regards to his current time sheet has presented itself, prompting his removal. If I have missed something here, please fill me in.

Given that Terrence has been very cooperative and good-natured in meeting the rightly strict proof guidelines that the community members helped nuance and create - we can assume with great consideration - as a condition for his return, I find it slightly sad that it was all reverted and undone so arbitrarily.

Andreas

Quote:


Umm, not sure where you are getting "majority from" and lest you forget, you've as much as admitted yourself that no one found it "unacceptable" until he started banging out WR's and passing players very much involved in this situation (therefore with a vested interest)............

If he had rejoined and never pr'd then I have no doubt at all in my mind that fenner would still be on the site and none of this would've blown up. Thats where I call bullshit on the outcome.

I agree its a step back when proven times exist. I dont believe that all decisions should be made based on a democracy either, i believe that the right decision has to be made, sometimes thats not the one which suits everyone.

My decision improved the integrity of the site, Aprils improves the morale. I still stand by mine.

KVD wrote on 12/09/11 at 05:38:37:


sorry for the double post but i've just seen your edit and picked up on this specifically.

I disagree here that an authoritive figure is one who "should" create a policy which the people he has authority over, want.

The authorititive figure should make a policy which creates the best outcome in their mind, thats why and how they become the authoritive figure in the first place. I.e. A CEO is chosen by HR, decides to fire 1000 people. Those 1000 people are fuming but if he doesn't then the company entirely goes under.

I'm sure if he asked then the majority of the work force would be against his decision..  

We're not employees though, we're members. I'd compare this more to a situation in politics, where you have to base decisions that affect the entire population. Politics are based on the power of democracy, business organisations of course are a different story.

Tom1 wrote on 12/08/11 at 23:29:47:


Not playing won't count against him necessarily (if I need to clarify that in the announcement, tell me), but playing and not posting vids, etc, will. What I want to see is that when he is active, he is posting proof of each PR he claims -- essentially what he was asked to do as a condition of his return before.

In terms of the champs page, I'm not sure if removing Fenner's times will impact how that looks, but I'm not going to add it to Seb's time or anything like that.

KVD wrote on 12/09/11 at 02:39:29:


Just because our views have clashed before doesn't mean your opinion means less than anyone else's here Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I think everyone can see it from a different angle.

Also, before anyone catches this and asks: for some reason when we tried to remove Fenner from the system, an error message came up, so as of right now his times are still on there, but when the error is fixed, they will be gone. I PMed Penev about this.

Tom1 wrote on 12/09/11 at 08:14:31:


Hmm...if he doesn't, that will be considered, but in my head, I'm just thinking -- if he PRs, he needs proof.

Site champ will go back to Seb -- over Fenner's reign, if the system awards it to Seb, then cool. If not, I guess it will come up as blank. It's not like Fenner returning never happened.

karterfreak wrote on 12/09/11 at 08:52:15:


I would agree with you on that, but I'm not sure if the system has a way to physically do that.

TellTale wrote on 11/24/11 at 10:38:59:


Have fun operating under a dark ominous cloud looming over the page for the next whole year.

What happens if he complies with every request and does not cheat anywhere until Dec 2012 and then  another vote is held and the majority still vote to keep him off the page.  Do you just say "hey let's push it back another year guys!"  ???  Sounds incredibly dimwitted.

The decision doesn't surprise me really though.  It was clear long before any votes were held that April had no intention of keeping Fenner on the site, no matter what anyone would write in those PMs that decision was clearly predetermined and highly unlikely to be changed.  I think the whole thing was a waste of time, and I feel like I wasted my time getting involved and typing a lot of good stuff.  No one even debunked or gave solutions to any of the points I made in that thread a few weeks back, yet the power of 2 votes (probably cast in spite and anger instead of valid objective reasoning), a borderline majority, had the power to conclusively overrule a past judgement!  That's terrible.  But who am I kidding anyway, the votes really had nothing to do with it, the decision was predetermined as soon as Tom stepped down.  Not that I believe voting was the proper way to go about the decision anyway, discourse and logical fact-based argumentation would have been the superior road.  Alas, this community doesn't really even seem capable of having such kind of discussions without letting personal biases and forum politicking get in the way.

/Rant over

T-man you are my homie.  The real best in the world!  Fuck the haters.

[quote author=7D4C4E55503C0 link=1323377438/25#35 date=1323446678]Tom1 wrote on 12/08/11 at 23:29:47:


Has he got any POWs? As it is done by PID the database will cause an error if you try to remove. You may need to reassign those then it will let you remove. Penev will let you know, unless he has any other suggestions.

Vorsch wrote on 12/09/11 at 01:03:38:


We had a similar way at Super Mario Kart, when we banned Infinite Boost at MC2... almost 5 years after it was allowed ! And the decision was accepted by everybody. As Karel said, we reconsidered a decision taken too quickly, and that could be a too bad way for the Players' Page.

I don't know how I have to think about your request...

But OK for me : I voted to see Terrence out of the Players' Page.

First of all, I have to say a big thank you to April for handling all of this It is a complicated situation, and as Karel said, it is not black or white. So, a decision had to be taken quickly, and I'm quite happy (not 100%, but still) with the result of the vote. Of course, Terrence is not perma-ban (the perma-ban was what I voted for), but at least it is a step in the right direction: Tom's decision to allow him back on the site was wrong, and it has been fixed for now, so many thanks for that.

As a result, I'm glad to ask for my times to be added back on the site (if it's fine for you, April). I already did a few PRs in the meantime btw
I just hope I won't have to ask for another removal in the future Terrence might be added on the players' site again one day, and to be honest I think I just can't trust him anymore (probably forever) after all the cheating things he's done. For now, I'll just enjoy being back on the site and send new PRs now that we're amongst trusted players