Quote:


Once again, I am referring to what has happened since Terrence was accepted back onto the site. If it can be proven that he has cheated since being readmitted, that puts things in a different light for me, but to my knowledge he has been providing solid proof in accordance with our wishes and to the extent asked.

Tom: I have never questioned Terrence being let back. Throughout, I have been supportive of the decision to let Terrence and his proven times back onto the site.

Andreas

Tom1 wrote on 11/25/11 at 07:22:54:


That doesn't say anything about the validity of the viewpoint. There was a point in time when only 1 person on earth believed it was a sphere, the remaining millions thought it was flat and demanded the other person to conform to that idea.

The fact you present is a fact deduced from what the most popular opinion is; boiled down to it's essence it's an appeal to authority of the majority. Therefore it is not a powerful fact.

I'm talking about dry facts, such as so and so was found cheating or radiation harms you, so you shouldn't build an appartment building in the garden of a nuclear powerplant.

The last claim demonstrates your ignorance on the Cyberscore case.

We're not defending the sentiment that:

-Cyberscore banned him...we should be consistent with Cyberscore so let's ban him too!

We're defending the sentiment that:

-He submitted impossible times to a mariokart ranking (which happens to be Cyberscore, but it could have been on Facebook for all I care), right in a time-frame where he was considered to be allowed back onto our, distinct, website. Therefore, let's stop the validation process, as he has already proven with this action to still be unreliable when it comes to submitting mariokart times.

KVD wrote on 11/25/11 at 08:03:55:


Well there is where you go off the track, by equating his reliability to his legitimacy.  

We already have an implicit system in our proofing standards on this site to address the reliability of members of the page, with streaming and the other stipulations in place (all of which that Terrence has passed through already mind you).

So what if you claim T-man is instable and may cheat again?  If he does so then action will be taken AT THAT POINT.  You're jumping the gun based on a cyberscore issue and using your prediction that he may cheat, as a judgement that he will cheat.  The proofing system, for already verified members of the PP should be able to easily catch him if he ever cheats again with this game in regards to the PP.

The reliability of the T-ster really is once again completely irrelevant in regard to his legitimacy, and as a matter of fact, his current timesheet is legitimate.  If you are so gung-ho that he is going to cheat again here, let the current system of proofing be the judge for that instead of your emotional tirade.

I never said every pr must be strictly proven.  That isn't practical.  I've said our current proofing standards have caught Terrence before, and I see no reason that they would not catch him again.  An occasional further stream wouldn't hurt either though.  If he was apt to cheat multiple times and has been caught multiple times, I doubt that he is very good at covering up for himself.  We would be able to catch him with the current system we have in place.

About the emotional tirade remark.  I'm not sure you took the time to read my whole argument since you really only addressed the last sentence.  Anyways...  Regardless of what your emotions are, it still is not best to stray from our SYSTEM that has worked perfectly fine and go along with individuals looking to buck that system.  We might as well throw out the whole system if we don't go along with it, because then in the future decisions are simply going to be made by individuals and may end up being based off of emotions, grudges, past hindrances, or other biased perspectives.  The current system leaves no room for bias which is great.  It hasn't let us down yet.  If we continue to abide by it, then Terrence should be left along until he is caught cheating on the mksc pp again.

TellTale wrote on 11/25/11 at 08:25:56:


That is a very dangerous policy. It's actually a bit offensive towards Terrence, as you're assuming that he will never learn from his mistakes.
The way I see it, each time you're giving him a new chance to try and elude our monitoring system...and eventually he will try it again and eventually he will succeed.
This is how natural selection works and it can be applied to many principles in life.

This is also why character/reliability in regards to this aspect IS relevant. It can be demonstrated that the motivation to cheat is still present within him (we're talking about events that transpired in 2011). If he learns how to evade the system in combination with that (and it is possible), we'd never be able to find out. I find in issues like this it's better to be safe than sorry.

KVD wrote on 11/25/11 at 08:33:05:


I'm not sure where or how you drew that conjecture up.

In fact...

I've actually assumed all along and said multiple times now that I believe Terrence is a changed man.

I have also said at the very least that he is more likely than not holding himself to a much higher standard on the mksc page, on the basis of being the site champ and given a second chance.  Because of that I find his likelihood to cheat again in this game on this page is quite low.


In regards your point about natural selection and evolved evasion...I understand where you are coming from completely.  Mkwii has a case currently under consideration in which a WR holder is suspected of conning the live stream proof procedure we have in place.  However we still were able to realize this and have instituted a new amended system to hopefully deal with the flaws of the old system.  We didn't, as some our trying to do here, make a judgement by individuals outside of the realms of the system.  I feel doing so in any case can have very negative results.  Every case should be fed through a system.  If a case is fed through a system and problems remain, than the system needs to be amended to better deal with these cases.  I'm all for the development of some sort of new proof mechanism or rule being sprung up from this Fenner case.  However to remove him from the PP and reverse the original judgement, I'm unwilling to agree with anyone who wants to remove him at this moment, because he has yet to do anything wrong ON THIS PAGE, since being reinstated.  I actually believe that even the CS incident occurred before he was actually reinstated here too (even if it was afterwards it doesn't make much difference though).  Nevertheless his legitimacy should not be tested by his reliability, it should be tested by our system.  So far so good.  Leave him on the players page.

I'm only referring to the only context that matters in this situation.  MKSC PP.  Any other places on the internet, other games, etc, I (and plenty of others) do not find relevant.  T-Man is not likely to cheat again here on the mksc pp, because he is holding himself to the highest personal, moral, and ethical standards compared to anywhere else he is on the internet, and probably in real life (lol).  Call me biased, but I'm simply on the side of the original judgement that was made based off of the proofing system set in place on this website, instead of looking to tear apart the system.  I don't see proper conclusive evidence or reasoning that would be enough to over-turn that judgement at this time.

Well I made my point, and I really have nothing else to say.  The convo is starting to just become circular.  Both sides of the argument are well defined and each hold at least some merit.  Take your stance how you will mksc community.  

So until we meet again, farewell for now!

Thanks April, you're very focused on solutions, that is a good thing definitely.

As April already realized, a quick opinion poll is terrible for forming the basis of a decision that will drastically alter the future of this website.  Allowing people who may not even participate here cast a vote once again makes a mockery of the magnitude this situation deserves.

Besides being unable to determine who voted or why, it does not even give players a chance to communicate their thoughts and feelings on the matter.

April is trying to resolve this as fairly as possible.

If you disagree with her decision, why not leave like you told most of us who were unhappy with the site?

Detective Spril wrote on 11/26/11 at 12:42:58:



So the views of people who might want to join the site but are put off at the moment by the whole current situations views shouldn't be considered?

I've been a member of the site for quite a long time.  Hell I have a submitted time set for every kart game!

I didn't appreciate having my long well thought out posts made in this thread "mean nothing" and have the slate wiped clean with only PMs being considered after taking the time to make those posts.

^Yea. I just don't want to have to dig through posts to figure out what you're talking about. If there's something particularly relevant, copy and paste. I'm fine with that. MVT -- your copy/paste was not a problem at all