I know Terrence has a long past history of cheating.  However, SINCE being reinstated, I think he has gotten the message and has stopped cheating.  I just cannot understand the logic of removing a guy who was just reinstated.  That's just a huge slap in the face.  Imagine getting fired from a job for doing something wrong, getting rehired and then immediately fired again without doing anything.  It just isn't right to be honest.

I also just can't imagine how Fried's idea of delayed reinstatement is constructive.  It's simply delaying the inevitable.  We will be in the same situation then as we are in now.  What honestly is going to change from now to January 1st, 2013?  There literally is nothing more Terrence could do.  If he streamed every day of the week until then, it still wouldn't remove the "doubt".  As I said before I see no reason why the anti-Terrence gang would be any more accepting of him then as opposed to now.  You have to pick a spot to take a stand.  If the circumstances are going to be the same now as in 2013, why not take the stand now against the Fenner haters instead of delaying it.  Once you procrastinate something one time, it is easier to push it back even further.  By 2013 it will be even harder to get anything done, and this whole situation will be less fresh in people's minds than it is now.  We are in a better position to make a permanent judgement now than we will be over 1 year from now.  If you truly believe he is a cheater then hell, keeping him reinstated sooner rather than later would give him a lot more of a chance to slip up again.  Instead of sitting on the sidelines for such a long period of time.  If he is caught ever again cheating in mksc then sure ban him for good.

So really imo...

Leaving T-Man on the site until he slips up again > Perma Ban T-Man > Fried's idea

Why anyone would want to go along with Fried's idea and function with a dark cloud hanging over the whole mksc pp until 2013 is baffling to me.  I really wouldn't expect any circumstances to change under Fried's plan.  It's best to just take a stand now and get it over with.  I thought a stand was already taken by reinstating him.  I think it best to just stick with that original judgement unless of course he slips up again, then just permaban him and wash your hands of the bs completely.

MVT, you forget that when he was added back, he was again caught submitting fake times to CS. That was when nothing happened, and that is why most of the people wanted to wait more before adding him again, but nothing happened.

Sorry if I'm wrong, I'm busy and I haven't read carefully through everything for the moment, but I think that's the argument of most anti-fenners. And I don't think you even mentioned that. To say it in your words, the judge just looked over the CS issue, while most of the other people wanted him removed again.

That's the problem of the whole issue. Indeed you could say he has cheated again, but just not here.

TellTale wrote on 11/24/11 at 11:09:43:


The problem is, that first judgement was like the dumbest ever made in Mario Kart's history (sorry Tom, but this is the naked truth).

A second judgement should have been made at that point to fix this issue, and still should be made imo. Terrence's cheating huge history and the whole CS story should have ended with an automatic perma-ban, that's where Tom, as the MKSC Godfather, terribly failed (he did a fucking good job until this moment - I just had to underline this ).

Lol @ MVT calling Terrence the most proven karter ever... He's just the guy being caught cheating for the most times in all Mariokart's sites (and across other sites too).

In your opinion, we're saying: "Once a cheater, always a cheater". Wrong. We're  saying: "Five or six times caught cheating, always considered as a potential cheater".

I'm not in favour of Fried's idea. I don't think we should make compromises here. Just 100% allow him or ban him forever.

TellTale wrote on 11/24/11 at 11:09:43:


<Judge> You're guilty go to jail
<Parole board a few years later> Ok you've served your time and are a low risk, you're free to rejoin society (with conditions)
<Parole Officer> What the fuck did the parole board release you for, you haven't really changed. Get your ass back in jail.

That's more how I see the the situation

Tom1 wrote on 11/24/11 at 14:19:03:


This question doesn't surprise me: you seem to know nothing about his cheating's history. Otherwise you wouldn't have let him back on the players' site

Terrence already cheated twice at MKSC, everybody knows that !

1- Retro DP2's 1'09"96, deliberately transformed to 1'09"92 to claim the WR (previous one was 1'09"93)

2- Something like 8 false times sent on French forum, corrected by Terrence with a dumb way (one example : "Oh, I said 13"xx at Retro BC3 flap ? Please change it to 15"xx !"...)


I don't deny the fact his 80 current PRs on the site are certainly true. But he can't be accepted as a member of the players' page with his past. When there was the first possibility to rehabilitate him a few months ago, I didn't hear anything wrong about him since 2-3 years, so I was ready to think he became adult and stopped to cheat. But as the moment I knew about fake scores on Cyberscore at MKDS, it was out of question to see him again on the players' page. But with his efforts to prove his current times are true, I had proposed a domination page to keep Terrence's times on the site, but with him still outside the players' page.

As long as this domination page won't exist, and therefore as long as Terrence will be considered like a member of the player's page, I'll never come back to MKSC. NEVER ! I know I had already taken my distances about this game, but I did the same at SMK, nontheless I still do some PRs here and there. But it won't happen at MKSC, don't worry about that.

Oh, and don't forget that Guillaume Bertrand, who tried to cheat at SMK in 2007, was banned to SMK Players' page, even if his 40 PRs on the site look true and even if he never sent one of his fake times to YahooGroups ! He just lost his credibility at one moment... Terrence lost his credibility since... wow, 5-6 years ? And he should be accepted as a member of the Players' page ?

But I'm sure you endorse the French cheaters!?

The threatening to not play the game is even more childish.  Well it's not as if mksc is an active community whatsoever to begin with, so who cares if these players stop playing.

T-Man is a changed man, but people just can't come to terms with that.

GhettoKarter wrote on 11/24/11 at 17:27:02:

(Please tell me if I have missed out on something important. I'm slightly confused by this.)

So now that Tom's stepped down as site admin Terrence's removal suddenly is an urgent issue in need of immediate resolve.  
It would seem to me, it's more of an opportunity for those who still don't/no longer want him on the site to openly present this option as somehow viable, even though he has proof of his times. Given the general commotion and number of passionate posts rooting for removal, the ambition to have him removed seems strong even though nothing has changed in terms of proof and Terrence has complied every bit of the way deemed necessary in proving his MK:SC times' legitimacy.

Tom did not want to exclude Terrence's times, largely because it devalues the accuracy and I suppose to some extent relevance of the records on the site. I would agree with this line of reasoning so long as it is not effectively secondary to other more damaging factors against it.
And now that nothing has changed neither with regards to the MK:SC proof status nor with Terrence's ambition to stay proven as site champion, I don't see how this came about. (His decision not to play should not be interpreted as uncooperative as long as he has proof for all times claimed.)
To the site as a whole, I feel this is indeed devaluing and regressive, if not embarrassing.

Rules are sufficiently agreed upon with sufficiently good cause to constitute the actual ruling.
A person of authority leaves his post.
Turnaround of policies and establish guidelines ensues.
What does this say about the site and how the community handles things. For all the discontent with Tom's decisions and functions as a site admin that I can only assume was a factor in him resigning his post, the road taken thenceforth isn't all that more professional, is it? It also reflects akwardly on Tom; "Now that the stumbling block is gone, let's enforce what the rest of us wanted.". This may not be anyone's intention, but it sure looks it.
Following the reasoning of "once a cheater..." no amount of proof of times driven can ever be enough to ensure one's inclusion. What more in terms of strict stipulations can you justly and reasonably include to the end of being contented?

Terrence hasn't been guilty of any MK:SC cheating since he was reinstated, which I feel should account for more than it seems to do. Let's say I'm an esteemed tennis player who has won countless tournaments on the merits of my performance and skill. Would it really be a factor that I cheat in chess or that I fail to stay on my diet? Now, this is not a very relevant analogy by any means, but it serves to illustrate how connected the two instances factored in here may not be to all, and let people reflect upon how related they should be.

I don't really understand the practical difference of having Terrence on the site as opposed to only his timesheet. He'd still be on the forum, possibly to the annoyance of those that do not befriend him, his times would still be present on the site (quite rightly), and everyone would still know who he was and by courtesy of proof videos know how they were driven, etc.. I suppose it could be done to apply a sense of shame and ostracization, but would it truly be felt when the forum is open and available? Is it something to strive for at all?
To me, it just feels a small-minded measure and gesture by the community. If it has no other bearing I don't see the point, and wouldn't rightly call it a solution so much as a to some perhaps strangely fulfulling compromise.

Andreas

The point with the qoute was to illustrate how little consequence Terrence's other behaviour outside of the realm of the kart site may have for some. I am  not referring to cheating on the MK:SC site or even the Kart sites as is seemlingly implied from your quote modification. Whether he cheats on CyberScore or in any other arena doesn't in any way impede his right to be on this particular site for me. I said that the analogy, vague and somewhat clunky as it was may not apply fully, thus appearing irrelevant. The point itself may be just as important to some. For me, this is a non-issue as long as our proof stipulations are met, which has been the case.

I never said the stumbling block scenario was far from the truth. Au contraire. I believed this to be the case from how it looks, which is why I pointed out that it reflects badly on Tom in the first place. I pointed this only to say that not only does it reflect badly on the decisive core, it also directly portrays Tom's solution as one no one agreed with, mere hours after his resignation as side admin. It ties in with how things look, and how they are handled. It does look awkward.

I'm sure we could argue semantics and science and the existence of God here, but I am not going to venture far in that regard. My post is not about refuting science or God. Thank You so much for insulting my intelligence by adding a Wikipedia article, though. That's always positive.
I will say once again that as we have presented proof stipulations for him coming back, with a good many people having a say in forming the specifics of which, he has willingly complied. We have had every opportunity to lay out conditions, something was a agreed upon, and Fenner met the qualifications. For me to revert this to him not being allowed because Tom is not in charge, just feels hasty, and if this change is so welcome, one might begin to wonder why Tom's powers were not "overthrown" sooner. If you have a different opinion on this or raise other points that to you are more relevant, that's another matter, and certainly another matter than science; claiming to have science on your side against me might be "a bit" presumptuous for what's being argued.

Andreas

I have stated in my post why the analogy was there, and it was to illustrate how little impact his behaviour outside of the kart sites has for his MK:SC legitimacy for me, and may have for others.
There wasn't really more to it.

Just the reasons for your linking to the Wikipedia article is what may be considered insulting. Doing it in itself can be construed as such because it presumes the other does not know, and then to do it to a Wikipedia article, that isn't known to be the best source, further adds to this as one can think of it as simplified and dumbed down.

I never said you didn't have science on your side, I didn't even reflect over that, I was referring to bringing science and definition into a discussion with a degree of subjectivity as being a bit too heavy, especially with the preceding arguments in mind. My post wasn't rocket science, so I don't see why it has to tread that path onwards. Also, I felt it a bit comically pompous to back up what is mostly a difference in values and opinion by using the science trump card.

I think you are applying the cheating instances much too generously. The non-cheating I was referring to was pertaining to the period after our chosen guidelines of proof we demanded from Terrence, not retroactively. I have no reason to believe these post-reinstatement set times not to be accurate.
If you want to boot him for something else, I will not be part of that discussion, except to say that I disagree with bringing up the past cheating instances again. If Terrence's times as of present are all valid, I feel they should be on the site, and as previously stated any attempt at removing his persona whilst keeping his times makes little practical difference and makes the community seem petty.

Andreas

KVD wrote on 11/25/11 at 05:06:31:


You could re-read my previous post where i said why.

Otherwise i'll say it again, essentially what people do on any other site doesn't matter to me. I dont care if you're hitler or obama, if you can prove you made some times then i'll put them on the site with your name attached. Which Fenner has done.

You will notice my view on the jorge discussion (mk6) which i think (and have voiced) any of his proven records should be included on the mk64 site.

You aliken Cyberscore to our site, I see why but i dont agree. In the same way if i claimed a time on facebook would you come back and hold me to it? Where do you draw the line. What if no one here was on cyberscore, would we be having this discussion?.... actually we probably would but for different reasons.

Its not about character for me, its not about previous history, its about what times and scores exist legitimately. Fenner might be a numpty but his times are legit imo and therefore whatever he says on any other site etc doesn't count.