AlexS wrote on 11/01/18 at 04:53:05:


I've heard that Suiryu and Nagisa know each other IRL, but Suiryu is more than capable of recording his own runs, since he's had a good capture card for years (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDsy74tLe7g).

But if either of them is capable of using live replay/speedometer codes, then they could easily load CTGP through the Homebrew channel without having to install anything, so neither has any excuse for not setting runs on it yet. My guess is that they just don't see the purpose in using it, since they probably don't care about being well received in a community they're hardly a part of. I do hope they end up getting it, though.

Speaking of Niyake, he actually responds if you DM him on Twitter, believe it or not.



This makes me wonder why he never responded to KingAlex's attempts at talking to him in Japanese on his videos. Maybe he doesn't actually read his comments?

RosscoXz wrote on 11/03/18 at 19:41:39:

Of course, that's a completely reasonable perspective, it's just annoying when I see people throwing out random facts or accusations about him with knowing very little.
I don't know for a fact if they don't read comments, but there's a few things that lead me to believe they don't.
1. They have not interacted with anyone in the community since 2014.
2. They don't respond/like any comments and haven't at least since shutdown (and maybe before), not even from Japanese players.
3. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are not intentionally ignoring them as both are very oldschool players who have never given me a reason to doubt them.

BlazeMSX wrote on 11/03/18 at 20:41:21:


They don't need an "excuse" to not set times on CTGP, it's completely irrelevant to them. CTGP came out after both of them cut contact with the community, and it's not even a discussion in the Japanese community about whether or not CTGP should be required. It seems quite arrogant for people to judge them based off of a standard that comes from a community they have never been a part of.
Also, Nagisa's last run he uploaded was in April of 2015, the CTGP ghost system didn't come out until July 29th 2016. I think the fact that the last time he seemingly played was before CTGP was even relevant for TTs is a valid "excuse".

But you are correct that Nagisa has homebrew. Nothing suggests that suiryu does necessarily but Nagisa definitely does as he has recorded runs with live replay before. I don't know if suiryu's capture card (GV-MVP/TZ) supports 60fps, but the runs that have been recorded look very similar to Nagisa's quality (including 60fps) which comes from a Hauppauge.

On top of that, I think it's pretty likely that Nagisa is still the one uploading his runs, as in 2016 when suiryu's CM was set, Nagisa put "This record isn't mine, suiryu's record." which implies that it was not suiryu who uploaded the video/did the description.

Also, if you compare the quality from this video which Nagisa recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw6pmf5Af_U to suiryu's CM run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw6pmf5Af_U
the quality is pretty much identical, leading me to believe it's Nagisa still recording the runs for him.

Nah, I'm not sure if suiryu knows about the mkwrs page or not, but Nagisa either knows about mkwrs, ctgp records, or he just follows the Japanese top 10 page, seeing as he updates the tiltes removing WR from them in a reasonable amount of time. It's very possible that if he did know he wouldn't care much, but I'm not going to speak for him in that regard as it's a big unknown.

Infi doesn't "know" to upload his times to CTGP, like I mentioned before, he only has CTGP because he was interested in CTs, he had CT ghosts before he even touched regular tracks and also has some CT BKTs and also plays WWs/CTWWs, hence why he has it. Nim's situation, admittedly, I'm not an expert on, but I clearly remember him not saying "no", it's that by the time people had asked him to upload his ghost he had already sold his wii, but people took that as a no/assumed he meant he sold his wii to avoid proving himself. It's understandable why his time wasn't counted, it seems suspicious and he "refused" to prove himself. But the entire situation was based around misunderstandings, which is why I have a problem with the fact that people are trying to say that these people have an obligation to follow "our" rules when there isn't a rules page on the site they are trying to ask these people to prove themselves to. In the end, what's the harm?

For clarification regarding the rules page, I meant a rules page in both English and Japanese. A Japanese player came forward and offered to translate the rules into Japanese, but the mkwrs people didn't contact him nor did they even create a page in English after the Hibiki situation. Which I find absolutely baffling. I believe that CTGP (excluding the fact it is "cheat proof") and mkwrs is well known in the Japanese community, suiryu is an outlier in that there's no ways to contact him currently and there would be no reason for him to get CTGP besides to TT on it. I think a rules page in both languages is ideal in moving forward in hopes of centralizing the site. If there are Japanese rules then hopefully more Japanese people will be inclined to look at the site or follow those rules. Of course, it's possible that some/many will simply not care like you said, but at least then they will know why their times aren't counting rather than everything being discussed/decided completely off site.

why is this even a debate

no CTGP = WR doesnt count

also it's their own fault that their communication is so bad. Not having Twitter, Discord or YouTube? really?

DennisColvin76 wrote on 11/04/18 at 15:07:28:


Alrighty, let's say goodbye to Braixen's rPB and Vincent's WGM then, shall we? Vincent's run wasn't set on CTGP while the TT update was out, so we should delete it, no? Braixen's ghost apparently "failed to upload", hmmmmmm... Also Havoc's .6 on BC3 shouldn't count, let's go back to his .8 being the WR because CTGP leaderboards weren't a thing when he set that one! (Please don't think I'm doubting these runs lmao, I believe these runs to be legit like any person with common sense.)


Having CTGP as a requirement should not be the way to go. Of course it's really helpful and everyone who has knowledge/has access to CTGP should ABSOLUTELY get it. Not having CTGP in 2018 is a huge inconvenience to the whole TT community, but to expect everyone to play on it isn't realistic. At least not yet.

If someone's trusted enough and the run seems realistic, I don't see a reason to doubt the run. Gray areas should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and suiryu's run seems to fall in a gray area. I personally don't see anything fishy with the run, it goes in line with every other run he's set in the past few years, but I'm not the most experienced TTer at all, I wouldn't know the advanced BCWii/general tech to make any decisions about counting or discounting it.

But yeah, bringing this up just in case this happens again. Trust and showing progress is still a factor in the leaderboards, whether it be counting pre-CTGP runs or having old players come back and setting runs outside of CTGP. Another thing that I should probably mention is that disc drives can break too, which prevents CTGP being used. If it's not mandatory, there's no point spending the money on a new wii if you can just TT on ISO. (Gustav's disc drive recently broke and he's gunning for rDH WR, I would hate seeing it being discounted because the community's rules are a mess.)

So yeah, just wanted to give my 2 cents, care about it if you wish.

Arvo57 wrote on 11/05/18 at 02:44:32:


1. No I don't think their runs are cheated. But others may think otherwise and we actually have to prevent people take advantage on these kind of trust.

2. People who trust players are the first who cry a lot when said times turn out to be cheated or lied. I really hope that no run on the wr site nor the top 10 site is cheated. But we have to set possible standards for every player to prevents misunderstandings in the future.

3. There is no official leaderboard nor official people who update them. We only have a platform that gives us the opportunity to verify that ghosts are driven legit. We (the fans and community) have to find a way to agree on overall rulesets. We can not involve everyone since a. japanese people dont communicate with us & b. People refuse to use CTGP or simply cant due to their broken wii or similar.

4. Gustav's case: Imagine he is gunning for WR but just fails over and over again. With CTGP he won't have a chance to cheat a lucky sc with savestate in l3 in order to achieve WR. That's how people did in the past. Mario, jay etc were (kind of) trusted players who TURNED OUT to have a shady site and this alone shows me, that I can not trust anyone who plays high level TTs and tries to submit times without any kind of (ghost)proof. (I know gustav is capable of getting the WR and I probably believe him. Its just a warning). If a CTGP only WR - system will be implemented and people disagree with this because they cant get ctgp they can contact black, mario etc and thank them. + streaming with mobile wont be hard and a ghostfile of the runs can be uploaded without ctgp aswell.

Arvo57 wrote on 11/05/18 at 02:44:32:

While you're at it, delete every single past record which were not set on ctgp. Obviously a ctgp-only rule would be applied going forward.
Arvo57 wrote on 11/05/18 at 02:44:32:

So to the people who argue using ctgp to prove yourself is counter-intuitive, if this guy does eventually WR and you have no issues counting it despite him playing on non nintendo software, well I really don't understand your logic

Arvo57 wrote on 11/05/18 at 14:06:41:

Where's the discussion thread for allowing ISO's? I'm curious to read about it. Also, are there any other top TT players playing on an ISO?
Vega wrote on 11/03/18 at 06:07:21:

I find this hypocritical. Every other PP prohibits players from playing on other platforms besides on an authentic nintendo console/handheld. Can you imagine guys like KVD or MR not playing on an official SNES and N64 respectively and instead were playing on their PC? I'd like to believe everyone would be in an uproar about that.
As for counting the record on say mkwrs, sure the progress he made while playing on his Wii is perfectly legit, the problem once again boils down whether a WR driven on an ISO should be officially accepted or not (also, how would you know the WR itself is legit? Progress doesn't give you a definitive answer; ctgp/streaming does). It's unclear. There are no official rulings on mkwrs unlike for the PP.

MKchouy93 wrote on 11/05/18 at 12:05:15:

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and connecting the dots based on what information we have. I am not going to make assumptions based on a community's standards or viewpoints he has never been a part of. CTGP is cheat-proof as far as we know, yeah, but the ghost sharing capabilities came out over 2 years after shutdown, which is when suiryu last had contact with the community as I remember.

What rules are we bending for suiryu? There are no rules for mkwrs, Chouy, cases are decided based on community input, not rules. If there were rules saying times must be played with CTGP or that ghosts must be available, why was that not implemented after Nim's situation which entirely revolved around not being able to get the ghost? Situations with outliers are why we are discussing things, because these are situations we haven't dealt with before and need to tread carefully moving forward.

Did you read everything I posted? I answered most of the questions you have in them.

To reply to your last point, why do you believe that? What purpose does interacting with the community serve if all you do is TT? Are you looking for friends? People to talk to about it? Not everybody needs this just because many do. There are many players who don't interact much with the community and pop up with times seemingly out of nowhere. Luke comes to mind as an example of that. His Wii is from 2007/2008, he has FCs from as early as 2008/2009, but he was never once even so much as interacted with the community until somewhat recently, coming out of nowhere getting an absurd amount of strong BKTs and showing mastery of fundamental aspects of the game and being one of the best regular track TTers now. There are definitely players who do not feel the same need you do to interact with the community just because they play a game they enjoy. Of course, Luke did end up coming to the community, but that's besides the point I'm making.

I also don't have any particular belief that any players that are on the rankings cheat currently, which I'm sure I'm in the minority of.

We have these discussions several times a year and nothing is ever done about it and is swept under the carpet until another hibiki/niyake/suiryu situation arises. The problem is we don’t have a group of people in charge of making rules, everyone is an equal and everyone is going to disagree.

AlexS wrote on 11/06/18 at 05:46:01:


Here we go.

I appreciate everyone that made it happen. I didn't make an effort myself because I figured at this point it was an exercise in futility. I know it was for the community not  just me but now if he beats me I can finally have peace of mind knowing it's legit. Thanks guys!