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Standards feedback (Read 1833 times)
Fant0m
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #75 - 08/21/09 at 23:13:51
 
I agree with Etch  Smiley
I think we should write to different standard pages, one for ZZMT and one for non-ZZMT.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #76 - 08/23/09 at 01:03:08
 
Etch, changing them allows us to make them better over time. They were the first set of standards for a reason. If we just remove standards then we wouldn't make any progress with them, where if we revise them they will eventually become good over time.

Right now, as you said, some of the standards are piss easy obviously, but a lot of them were made with what we thought possible at the time. For courses that we knew what was possible (see: most courses where GOD hasn't been achieved yet/some of the high level god times/PC/RR), the GOD standards were fairly good. Problem is, we didn't how much ZZMT would change things, so some of them were rough estimates of what we thought possible (see: almost all of the easier GOD times)

Now that we can make a better estimation of a GOD ranked time on pretty much all the courses for ZZMT, I believe we should try and figure out the best possible non-ZZMT times.

In general, my belief is that we should mostly focus on what's possible for non-ZZMT users between the GOD/Newbie ranks, as pretty much all of our players are non-ZZMT players, and it's currently the main style of driving. However, for those who go up and beyond with ZZMT style driving, there could be GOD+1/GOD+10 (I highly recommend this as it is) rankings to give the ZZMT players something to try and achieve. If we do it this way, then our standards inbetween GOD/Newbie wont be unbalanced because of starting with a ZZMT GOD time like our current standards are.

To me, this would be the best set of standards.

GOD+1-10 (For ZZMT Players)
GOD (What we think is the fastest achieveable time for the non-ZZMT standard)
Myth A-F (Everything goes exponentially down from here, based off the non-ZZMT GOD standard)
Titan A-F
Emperor A-F
Hero A-F
Star A-F
Veteran A-F
Knight A-F
Warrior A-F
Contender A-F
Apprentice A-F
Novice A-F
Newbie A-F
Kart Fan (Anything lower than Newbie F)

It's a lot of standards, but in the end would leave a lot more room for balance.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #77 - 08/23/09 at 01:38:55
 
Ah! I see what you mean. mmm Yeah, that could be a good idea, just like they did in SMK ^^
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #78 - 08/23/09 at 10:13:52
 
My guess about God times for non-ZZMT, and ZZMT (maybe for God + 10 times)


           [ZZMT]                                                 [non-ZZMT]

PC : ??? / ??? (no idea)                                   46"80 / 13"70 (not accurate, especially the 3lap Undecided)
SGB : ???                                                       48"25 / 12"45 (current God is already strong though)
RP : 58"00-58"50 ? / 16"75                              59"00 / 17"00
BC1 : ??? / 12"50 ?                                         42"70 / 12"55
MC : ??? / ???                                                 55"25 / 16"25
BL : ??? / 21"80 ?                                            1'13"50 / 22"00
CL : 47"00 / 13"95                                           48"20 / 14"10
BC2 : 1'01"00 ? / 18"85                                   1'02"00 / 18"95
LC : ??? / ???                                                  1'06"00 ? / 19"30 ? (bad knowledge)
SG : ???                                                         47"50 / ??? (dunno new strat potential)
CCI : 48"00                                                    49"25 / 11"50
SW : ??? / 18"00                                             ??? / 18"30
SL : 1'00"50 ? / 17"50 (better ask Fenner Grin)    1'02"50 / 17"65
RR : 1'11"50 / 22"25 ?                                     1'12"00 / 22"40
YD : ??? / ???                                                  1'02"50 ? / 17"50 ?
BC3 : 1'20"00 / 25"00                                      1'21"50 ? / 25"30
LP : ??? / 14"40 ?                                            49"75 / 14"50
BP : 47"00 / 12"00 (extreme flap ?)                  48"00 / 12"30
BC4 : ??? / 29"70 ?                                         1'36"25 / 30"00
RR : see non-ZZMT                                         34"75 Grin / 10"30-10"35 ?


Discuss them... Smiley

(Will put retro tracks later)
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #79 - 08/23/09 at 11:16:37
 
nice God+ times for that SuperYoshi1

I think ZZMT PRs are as follows
PC: 44"34 / 13"19???
BC1: 42"10
BC2: 1'01"47 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
SGB: 46"58 / 12"48
MC: 52"50 (5lap)
SL: 17"50...you're good btw Cheesy
YD: 1'01"73 (5lap)
SL: probably 1'00"30
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« Last Edit: 08/23/09 at 11:56:10 by GhettoKarter »  
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #80 - 08/23/09 at 11:42:37
 
About non zzmt BC1, i have a very old japanese video (before ticking was discovered) showing a 14"08 second lap.
Before modify my DS, I had a 14"46 non zzmt opener (and i doubt it's the fastest opener lap around)
So at least 14"46+14"08x2 = 42"62
I'd say 42"60 for the God Standard.

Non ZZMT PC: in my opinion can't go much lower than what Su did (46"91), so i agree on 46"80 ( and good luck getting that).
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #81 - 08/23/09 at 12:04:20
 
I think I know about the retro ones (ZZMT):

MC1 - 44"49 Shocked / 6"75
DP1 - 57"00 / 9"19
GV1 - 47"46 / 6"99
BC1 - 1'11"99 / 12"40
MC2 - 56"40 / 7"90
CI1 - 38"80 / 4"75
GV2 - 47"77 / 7"65
DP2 - 1'08"20 / 10"99
BC2 - 1'23"60 / 14"49
MC3 - 1'11"90 / 11"69 Grin
KB1 - 27"30 / 2"92 Tongue
CI2 - 47"97 / 6"35
VL1 - 38"88 / 4"88
BC3 - 1'13"49 (using Bowser I guess) / 12"60
MC4 - 1'18"50 / 13"10
DP3 - 59"20 / 9"09
KB2 - 42"72 / 5"00
GV3 - 57"30 / 8"00
VL2 - 38"30 (the Karel way Smiley) / 4"79 (THE FUCKING KAREL WAYSmiley)
RRd - 1'09"30 / 11"60
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #82 - 08/23/09 at 12:24:31
 
lol
fenner
God standarts should be able to reach for someone, shouldn´t they?
just saw your rVL2 flap
I loled.....
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #83 - 08/23/09 at 12:36:50
 
God times should be, for the most part, impossible to attain.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #84 - 08/23/09 at 13:52:14
 
This site rushed making them and to no surprise they were bad.  I can't imagine a new set of standards for mksc being torn apart but if the same amount of effort goes into making them, they will probably still suck.  If it's done right, it's probably for the better.  Just make sure to set the bar high so any new God times aren't destroyed and you have to rerevise the standards.  I still say making them balanced overall would be the biggest challenge.  With so much variation between the tracks, you are forced to look at them specifically to determine appropriate gaps.

I can see God+ times reconciling zzmt and nonzzmt times but Tom said these are zzmt charts so what the fuck is it then?

You would still have n00bs with zzmt getting God so that would only improve the huge ARR gaps slightly.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #85 - 08/24/09 at 04:54:42
 
What do you mean? Well then Etch, give us an advice as you are a mod (so you may be used to creating new standards...)
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #86 - 08/24/09 at 05:04:47
 
I'll try to restate his post so that you understand.

He means that the standards were made too quickly, so they weren't too good (evidence of this is errors in standard inputting, for example same time being a Myth C and Myth A standard for example). When he says he doesn't think new standards will be easy to beat but still will be crap if they are made too quickly is that they will be harder to beat (obviously), but still bad if not enough thought goes into them. Then Etch said that making them balanced is the most important thing (for example one track's standards shouldn't be so much harder than another track's).

I hope that made sense? If further clarification is necessary, just let me know (or maybe Etch can try to explain).

I would be for Etch making standards, but I'm sure he'll agree that he's not quite at the level to determine a god, at least for most tracks. I'll say that I think this game can be maxed out quite a bit more, and determining standards should be put off for a while longer.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #87 - 08/24/09 at 05:20:21
 
They weren't rushed, I spent hours on them while I was at work. Needless to say there were some mistakes, sue me!

Need to chill everyone, when the standards were first put out no one said they were perfect, infact quite the opposite and I stipulated that we would review them after 6 months to see what progress had been made and see how players are grouping in the stats.

This is a democracy in so far as I want players input in helping to devise the standards. To be fair etch no one posted back then saying they wanted to create demi god times for non-zzmt and it sounds logical. The God times were set by what I thought was possible at the time in zzmt, thats why they are "zzmt charts". I then took benchmarks for certain standards from the players times in the chart at the time and made standard benchmarks for which I put incrementals in between, thats why some of the incrementals aren't static. I was also looking at how much per zzmt saved and how many per lap you could do to improve times on currently what they were.

I dont think we should have God + 10/9/8/7 etc, i dont think we need it. God is a "perfect" zzmt time, maybe the highest nonzzmt times should be Myth/Titan level. I'm more than happy for people to heavily contribute to making standards, maybe we should all go through together track by track and share thoughts. If we do one a day we'd cover it off in a month or so?
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #88 - 08/24/09 at 07:27:54
 
the only track where i can help is Ribbon Road i think 1'11"50 is reachable without ZZMT for Fast lap I don't now but under 22"40 for sure.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #89 - 08/24/09 at 10:56:23
 
I could've stayed in the MKSC site frozen so I can max half of my PRs Undecided
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #90 - 08/24/09 at 12:51:52
 
The Gaff wrote on 08/24/09 at 05:20:21:
I dont think we should have God + 10/9/8/7 etc, i dont think we need it. God is a "perfect" zzmt time, maybe the highest nonzzmt times should be Myth/Titan level. I'm more than happy for people to heavily contribute to making standards, maybe we should all go through together track by track and share thoughts. If we do one a day we'd cover it off in a month or so?


So you think 5 standard spots are going to be enough to cover the ZZMT/Non-ZZMT gap on some courses?

GOD should be possible for a top level non-ZZMT time. It's disadvantaging a player who can't use ZZMT because of hardware limitations. At least with GOD being the highest attainable time for non-ZZMT, a player can still reach an ARR of 0.

GOD+ times would allow you to change how the standards go lower. Usually everything is based off god (slowing the time exponentially based off of it), but GOD+ times don't have to be, they can just be times that are considered benchmarks for ZZMT times. That way non-ZZMT players will be able to achieve the highest rank, and ZZMT players can go that much farther with it.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #91 - 08/25/09 at 20:01:05
 
I bring these issues up because there doesn't seem to be a solid plan here. Kiss

That's kind of important when making new standards.

I am still sensing some disagreement on what should be a god time and how zzmt and nonzzmt gaps should be covered.

Easiest solution is to treat zzmt like nbt is for smk.  The problem with the mksc site though is that there are so few players.  It's harder to gauge what good times are with so few people making a serious attempt at it.  Setting the bar higher for newbie might encourage people to get records that don't involve falling off the track ten times.  Once people learn how to drive, they slowly improve by adding mt's and shrooming better.  Some strats are harder so you see larger gaps on some charts.  Since there is such variation between the tracks, going through them one by one is probably necessary to create balanced standards.

Not every course gives zzmt a huge advantage but we can't have the best nonzzmt time ranked expert a for example.  At most, the best non-zzmt times should be ranked low myth.  This might be a good compromise but the fact is there are only a few players who have good zzmt times.  On some charts, you would still have a large gap between those times and non-zzmt.  At least on smk, you have a lot more people so it looks like there isn't a bunch of empty space.

Three Choices
1. Make standards that are strictly zzmt
2. Make standards that are designed for non-zzmt leaving ranks near god as a zzmt buffer
3. Make standards that are strictly non-zzmt leaving ranks above god as a zzmt buffer

I don't know about you guys, but I don't see this site getting a whole lot larger than it already is.  In the interest of making nice looking standards but allowing god to be possible for non-zzmt players, choice 3 is probably the best.  At any rate, we need to make them hard enough so they last forever so to speak.  What we decide to do will come down to preference.  Standards are arbitrary but if we are going to do them, make them pretty.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #92 - 08/25/09 at 21:22:28
 
I like option 2 the best, since ZZMT is usually needed to make the Myth ranks in SMK. I also like the idea of harder Beginner standards like in MKDS (the current RKB1 5lap is a great start), though people here seem to want the SMK system of standards more. There is no way to describe how bad you'd have to suck to get Pawn standards in that system.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #93 - 08/26/09 at 00:58:04
 
I've already said that I like option 3 best, but in the interest of fairness, I'll go over the pro's and con's of each option. The standard names I use are based off of the current names for standards, and not the SMK standards like I hope we change it to.

1. Make standards that are strictly zzmt

Pros: 4
- More room for competition in ZZMT
- GOD standard will be very hard/next to impossible for a top level ZZMT player
- Still leaves the option for GOD+ times for ZZMT players that go up and beyond that of 'top' ZZMT play
- Ignoring Non-ZZMT players, this is the easiest way to balance the standards, as you would only require finding the theoretically fastest ZZMT time instead of finding both.

Cons: 5
- Many players do not want to modify their GBA/DS/DSL to be pro-ZZMT, or do not have the tools necessary
- Non-ZZMT top level players would most likely end up getting to Hero/Expert at best
- It would be impossible for a non-ZZMT player to get a GOD time.
- Many average non-ZZMT players would probably be ranked somewhat near Adv/Inter at best.
- Shunts the ARR ranks for non-ZZMT players, leaving a significant gap between them and ZZMT players.

2. Make standards that are designed for non-zzmt leaving ranks near god as a zzmt buffer

Pros: 5
- Allows more ranks for ZZMT players.
- Still has the option of GOD+ for above and beyond ZZMT players.
- Top level non-ZZMT players would be able to get low Myth/Titan times
- Balances the gap in ARR a bit between non-ZZMT and ZZMT players
- Would be possible to alter GOD+/Myth times (or ZZMT times in this case) by changing the exponential gap, although it has a possibility of making a non-ZZMT player's standard lower.

Cons: 4?
- Would still be impossible for a non-ZZMT player to achieve a GOD time.
- Doesn't allow non-ZZMT players to get a 'perfect' ARR of 0, which should be the highest achievement in standards reachable by 'any' (top) player after putting in many hours to a course for a 'perfect' time.
- Would be harder to balance the standards for non-ZZMT players with less room to put lower ranked times; Exponential gaps would be bigger than they would be in option 3.
- Changing the exponential gap at Myth would look weird, as all of the standards on every site have a history of having the standards go exponentially down from GOD. This is more of a personal opinion and doesn't have a lot of value, but it should be pointed out.
- Would require us to find the theoretical best possible times for both ZZMT and non-ZZMT.

3. Make standards that are strictly non-zzmt leaving ranks above god as a zzmt buffer

Pros: 7
- Top level non-ZZMT players would be able to achieve GOD times with a 'perfect' non-ZZMT time.
- The gap in ARR between non-ZZMT players and ZZMT players would be as close as you can achieve realistically.
- Allows non-ZZMT players to achieve an ARR of 0.
- GOD+ to GOD times can have higher exponential gaps than GOD to Myth/Titan/etc, allowing it to be insanely hard to climb the GOD+ charts even with ZZMT (I'd like to point out that in my personal opinion, GOD should be like slightly optimized TAS time for non-ZZMT players, and GOD+10 should be a slightly optimized TAS time for ZZMT players. (I say slightly optimized because fully optimized would involve delaying MT's by a frame to increase your speed by 1, completely straight ZZMTs, or other small things similar to that, which would be impossible for a player to do in real time))
- An insanely skilled non-ZZMT player could still have the possibility of climbing to GOD+1/GOD+2 depending on the gap/usefulness of ZZMT on the course.
- Would be easier to balance than Option 2, as it gives us more ranks available to lower level players, decreasing the exponential gap for non-ZZMT players and allowing the lower standards to be a more accurate display of skill level.
- Would also allow for alteration of GOD+ times (due to exponential gap) for ZZMT players without affecting non-ZZMT players.

Cons: 2?
- Makes the exponential gap for ZZMT players bigger, as this option has less standards available to ZZMT players.
- Would require us to find the theoretical best possible times for both ZZMT and non-ZZMT.
- I'm sure there's more, but I can't actually think of any more.




If anyone has any Pros/Cons to add to any of those options, please tell me, I'd like to keep a list of them and start a poll tomorrow so we can effectively decide on which option we want to follow.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #94 - 08/26/09 at 02:52:07
 
I think the option 3 would be the best as well, anyway, how many ZZMTers are currently active / will be active in the future ?
Option 2 is fine for me though... but option 1 does not really serve the interests of the community. Why making standards only for 3-4 people who can do ZZMT's ?

However, what do we do for RR and many flaps where ZZMT's aren't involved in the strat ? Those will be a problem for setting God + times.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #95 - 08/26/09 at 03:37:58
 
For the tracks where ZZMT doesn't save any time, we just set the highest possible time as GOD+10. and (depending on the situation/strategy) scale correctly. It's a pretty simple solution.
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #96 - 08/26/09 at 04:31:27
 
I think there are many tracks, where ZZMTs have no effect for flaps (LP; RR, rKB1, rDP1....)
I think option 3 is the best solution. And for the tracks where ZZMT is useless, you set the non-ZZMT barrier for everyone (God +10), As Matt said.

It would be a lot of work, but I think we could do it together, (like Tom said, one track a day, or so').

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But I´m not that good at it, as you maybe noticed xD
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #97 - 08/27/09 at 15:24:12
 
karterfreak wrote on 08/17/09 at 04:48:41:
In my opinion, you need to get the opinion of most of the top 10 (and especially stellmacher) before you come to any conclusions on standards, even if it takes more than 2 weeks.



i'm gonna write some thoughts about the tracks tomorrow. hm i'm inactive quite long and never wrote down my fastest splits and stuff...

sorry that i didn't say anything earlier here
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« Last Edit: 08/28/09 at 02:04:07 by Boom3r »  
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #98 - 08/28/09 at 01:30:38
 
seb, what do you think about the three options?
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Re: Standards feedback
Reply #99 - 08/28/09 at 02:23:04
 
option 3 would be the best solution without a doubt.
the main point of standards is to motivate people, right? (never really cared about them  Embarrassed )
so new players have more accurate non-zzmt standards to reach and the top non-zzmt player should be able to get god times!
another point is that i don't expect many karters to modify their gbas.

maybe we can change it to zzmt standards in a few years when there is good amount of zzmt players (like Sami did with the smk standards)
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