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Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time? (Read 939 times)
Simon
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Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
07/04/04 at 17:32:29  
Ok, I'm starting this topic because I've had some requests from one player in particular, Christophe Paquin, to be ranked officially in the NTSC and PAL rankings on the Non-NBT site (he also wishes to be on both rankings on the SMK players' site, but this particular request to me obviously only concerned the Non-NBT site). Christophe indeed has a NTSC and a PAL cart at home, and he regularly plays both of them. He has highly hesitated last year, as he was about to enter the SMK players' site, when he learnt that he could only rank officially for either the NTSC or the PAL version, but not both at the same time. A few factors, including the wish to be the first ranked GOD French player in NTSC influenced him finally to settle for the NTSC version, but he still plays, and has always played both version to a serious competitive level.

When Christophe came up with the issue initially on the French forum back 1 year ago, my personal opinion was that being ranked officially at 2 places at the same time for the same game/discipline was rather unlogical and also unfair to other players. (you get ranked twice rather than once, and at the same time get the chance to achieve twice the amount of WR's or high ranked times of any other player)

Now that Christophe comes back with the issue, my opinion remains roughly the same, but I may be willing to be more flexible with the Non-NBT site than my opinion was with the SMK players' site. I really won't mind to include a "sub-profile" containing all his Non-NBT PAL times (when eventually players will have individual profiles made for them on the site) and I could even keep his PAL SR score and total times stats up to date weekly into that sub-profile. As far as official rankings go though, I still strongly hesitate to let him enter both, and I would be leaning more towards the "no" than the "yes" for now. It must be understood, however, that his motivations to be ranked in PAL as well as in NTSC are trully understandable (the players he has got to know over the months and with whom he interacts on a daily basis are pretty much all ranked in PAL)

Anyway, so, my point here, is to get some people's input on this issue. I don't think this has ever been discussed much before, mainly because the other karts already mix PAL and NTSC together anyway, and Christophe is the only case of a player who wishes to be ranked officially in PAL and NTSC at the same time that I've personally been aware of.

So, do you think people should be allowed to be ranked in both? Would you considerate it as an inequitable treatment to you who only has the chance to play one version and who is ranked for that version, only?
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #1 - 07/04/04 at 17:43:55  
I think he should be allowed to be ranked in both PAL and NTSC. If he owns both cartridges, then why not. If I'd own both, I'd certainly want to be rank in both.
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #2 - 07/04/04 at 18:44:32  
That's not bad at all.  If he becomes a Legend Non-NBT player on both the PAL and NTSC systems, that would be great.  And that's Legend by the Non-NBT standards.
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #3 - 07/05/04 at 11:36:56  
I still agree with Simon on the problems with adding a player twice (to both PAL and NTSC).

One can achieve many WRs at a time from both sides and would not be fair on other players.

Plus there is the webspace issue. Not a problem to add one player twice, but if eventually many want to enter twice aswell then it starts to get silly maybe..

I suppose it is possible if Christophe wants it this way to add him to PAL and remove his NTSC times. That is if he wants to seriously compete in PAL only. Understandable with over 25 other French karters in PAL, and the French championship coming up in August. Of course it might not be nice to remove him from NTSC to put him in PAL but the option is there if wanted. If Christophe is happy to stay solely in NTSC then that is fine.  Smiley

I think Simon mentioned creating a subprofile for Christophe. This can be done simply to link off his current profile or something, but would not have a part in the PAL list (if he still wishes to be ranked in NTSC). Unless he would again change his mind in future.

It is an awkward decision but i feel probably best to keep it the way it is..

Sami
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #4 - 07/05/04 at 12:13:24  
I don't play SMK yet! but I'd say he should be allowed. I don't see how it would be unfair to other player that a better player then them is setting WR or just beating their time.

What I'd want in online competition is to compete against the best time done by the best players using my system. I'd find it really weird to have one great PAL player but that only has NTSC times while he would beat my WR time. You just feel it's not the WR since he beats it but he's not official because of a weird rule  Roll Eyes
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #5 - 07/05/04 at 13:10:15  
isn't this the only way we can have a uniform ranking system?  maybe in 10 years or so, everyone will have records in pal and nstc.
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #6 - 07/05/04 at 13:39:16  
I'd say both parties are bringing very valuable points here.

What Pier-Yves says makes a lot of sense, that is: any time achieved on a real console with a real cartridge is by definition a valid time. Keeping that in mind, I wouldn't like to have a NTSC WR that is beaten by a player who has a better NTSC time than me but only gets ranked for the PAL version. This does not only go for WR's necessarily, but any time achieved on a real console whatsoever should be considered valid.

On the other hand, however, if we allow players to be double-ranked, only those who have the opportunity or the money to buy 2 SMK cartridges and an adapter will get the chance to play competitively in both games. I've always hated how the video games companies kept releasing sequels, bonus features, additional patches, etc. just to keep us buying their stuff even years after the original console or game was released. I would definitely not like the SMK community to turn out this way, with people going all over the place to try to find and get the other version's (PAL in America, NTSC in Europe) cartridge. If this happened, people would start to care less about their home version, the competition could be less interesting in the high ranks, switching consistently from PAL to NTSC or vice versa would confuse players, and at the end quantity would sort of top over quality, maybe at the same time decreasing people's fun to play the game. Anyway, I'm taking the situation to the extreme obviously, but that's still something to consider.

Well, I guess I remain split between both parties at the moment, maybe still leaning slightly more towards a statut quo than a change on the current situation, and that until I'm more confident that the double-ranked players would do no -psychological- harm to the rest of the competition and that all could work out for the best of everyone. As far as the Non-NBT site goes, I think we can be pretty flexible with how we can work out this issue, at least more than we could with the SMK players' site. I'll probably take a decision going with the popular flow at the end, unless the lesser half is opposing the idea, but fiercely and for sensible reasons.

Oh and in regards with what Sami said, I would rather allow someone to enter both rankings than to disappear from one and to appear in another. That's my personal opinion, but the last thing I'd like to see are the efforts of a player in a version for months or years being instantly turned into nothingness... Briefly, what is acquired for someone should remain acquired for life.
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #7 - 07/07/04 at 14:30:49  
Yes Simon,

I agree that what someone has acquired should remain acquired for life. I only made a suggestion about removing an NTSC record list to add them to PAL, if the player really wanted to have it that way. I dont actually agree with it myself, because they may have worked for so long on them.

But the issue of many karters joining both sides, it really does get a bit confusing and people may get put off by the idea when there are more versions and rankings etc for each karter. So i agree with Simon on that aswell, i would still lean to the 'no' side as before. Keeping to one ranking position per member keeps things easier aswell and less confusing when making references to them in the news updates.

Sami
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #8 - 07/07/04 at 15:50:04  
How would it be unfair too? I don't get what you mean there.

I'll probably buy this game someday and play it here to get up a few ranks but not amongst the best (unless we get Québec meeting every week with Simon :p) but I wouldn't care about having someone ranked in NTSC and PAL. If you play NTSC you try to pass people with better time/skill then you so if he has a better time you have to pass it.

What would push someone to play both version?? It doesn't give him better time and he has to defend on both ranking and all that. I'm not going to buy a PAL SNES and SMK cart just to get ranked in another ranking that wouldn't give me anything more.

Oh and for switching game thing. Well if he wants it that way and he's willing to play only PAL with his closer friend then why not it's the same game so all those effort wouldn't be worthless. He knows the strat and now he can do them in slowmotion  Wink Tongue Tongue .
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #9 - 07/08/04 at 13:16:58  
I would say that if both games are different enough (perhaps only in the conversion but still different) to warrant split rankings then any player, regardless of rank or ability, should be allowed to compete in both sets of rankings. It's not an extraordinary feat to acquire both PAL and NTSC cartridges and a converter and play both versions of the game. If anything he should be rewarded for doubling up his efforts on both versions of the game and it should be doubly as hard for him to maintain dominating positions in both sets of rankings.

JMHO
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #10 - 07/08/04 at 14:31:31  
For Pier-Yves and Mark, yes, there is a significant control and handling difference between the NTSC and PAL version in SMK, so unlike MK64, it is really not just a matter of "normal speed vs. slow motion" here. You can't say that once you learnt a strat in NTSC, you can quickly apply it to the PAL version of the game, or vice versa. I have in fact played MC1 in PAL on emulator for quite a few hours once, and could only get 1'02"2x and 12"28 at the end (with the 5-lap having potential for high 1'01's still), which isn't "that" bad, but still very weak in comparison with my NTSC PR's. That's why I was talking about a player being ranked in both versions having a hard time to switch from one to another all the time. Come to think of it though, if both versions had as only differences the frame rates, then playing competitively in both would be kind of pointless, so you can say my argument here was void in some way (but I wasn't trying to convince anyone with it; I was just sharing arguments for informative purpose, so it's all good.  Wink)

As for the confusion in updates and such, well, there is a clear distinction between PAL and NTSC players in the Non-NBT news, with Michael writing news for PAL players and myself writing NTSC news, and on different days as well. I would therefore think that the player's double activity wouldn't confuse people reading the updates, but maybe more new comers who would wonder how come someone can be ranked twice and others not... (but that would be a problem moreso on the SMK players' site than it would be on the Non-NBT site, and either way, it would more likely need to be explained clearly somewhere on the site)

Anyway, it's nice that some of you have given your opinion on the matter so far. I'll probably ask some SMK players that are not regular users of the Message Board as well before taking a final decision for the Non-NBT site, but Christophe will sure be glad to learn that a lot of players are supporting his initiative so far!
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #11 - 07/08/04 at 14:45:12  
With what you just told I think it's even more obvious he should be allowed to play both.

If it's a bit different and that he wants to be on both ranking then why he'll have to play twice more to keep up with the other on each rankings.

And well Sim after a few hours of play you certainly can't tie a time you got with 1000 hours of play :p
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #12 - 07/08/04 at 15:12:19  
The current question here isn't whether or not someone should be allowed to play competitively both versions, but whether or not he should be ranked officially for his achievements in both versions. (that's probably what you meant, anyway, but keep in mind that the player can very well have his "foreign" version times being included in his profile even if they are not officially in the ranking)

Also, there may be many obvious and good reasons for which we would agree to let anyone rank in both versions of the game if he wishes. However, there are as well an infinity of valuable reasons to disagree with that. I wouldn't like to strongly disappoint a couple or even one person, just to go along with the "passive" opinion of the majority.

When I talked about the double-ranked player being unfair for other players, I wasn't talking about the individual times themselves that the player could get in either version, but simply of the plain but priceless principle of equality (1 player = 1 rank). Some people might not agree with the idea that some players, and some players only, get ranked twice instead of once for a single discipline, and I'd say I feel a bit this way too.

Oh, and my MC1 NTSC times actually suck (my 5-lap is my oldest PR), so it sure didn't take me 1000 hours to get to where it is at now, but ok, I get your point.  Wink Still, what takes you 1000 hours to do first doesn't take 1000 hours to do for the 2nd time, and that is especially true for MK. If I played some MC1 NTSC for barely 5 minutes (my PR is 59"80), I could get a 1'00"1x or 1'00"2x easy. (I got a 1'00"09 once during a 1-try tourney) Taking the boost out of account (it is not used in PAL), it "equals" to roughly 1'01"70 on PAL, and I didn't play the PAL version for 5 minutes, but actually 2-4 hours...
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #13 - 07/08/04 at 15:29:22  
This might not be the best comparison in the world but this is like professional golf. What I'm talking about is that there is the PGA tour (American) and the European Tour. Players can be officialy ranked in both. If they can be. I could say the restrictions here but I don't think anyone's interested in that so I'll just say that you need to play a minimum of tournaments in both tours. It's not all the players who can afford trips to Europe (or America or wherever), and it's not all the players who are in fact interested to be ranked in both tour. So if a player wants to be ranked in both and has the possibility to do so, then he can.  Like it's not all the SMK players who can be ranked in both Pal and NTSC and it's not all the players who would want to be.
So my point is that if a player has both SNES and cartridge and wants to be ranked in pal and ntsc then he should be ranked officialy in pal and ntsc. If the only problem is that newcomers might get fool, well this would only have to be explained in the "join page" or something, that's no big deal.
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #14 - 07/08/04 at 18:48:52  
Some people might not agree with the idea that some players, and some players only, get ranked twice instead of once for a single discipline, and I'd say I feel a bit this way too

Well if it's as you asy and that both version aren't completly the same it's like 2 different games  Tongue. But yet again I don't get your point why wouldn't you agree?

And that PGA exemple is great! Smiley
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #15 - 07/09/04 at 14:54:52  
I have received a message from Christophe himself regarding the current issue, and he gave me a message he wrote in French for me to translate it in English and post it on here. Things between [] are comments from myself. If despite their lengths, some sentences seem hard to understand, then my translation is to blame. Well, here it goes...

"Hello to you all, members of this forum, I am Christophe ! Smiley

It is for me a big step ahead if I can compete in SMK’s both rankings (PAL and NTSC) on both the Non-NBT site and the SMK players’ site, as I own indeed both complete versions of the game, I will now be able to use my Donkey to its full potential in PAL!! Wink

If, eventually, it does become possible, I will send my first PAL PR’s for next September, after the French championship of SMK event, and to ease Sami’s and Simon’s work, I will never send PAL and NTSC PR’s at the same time, it will be PAL one time, and NTSC the other time !  Wink

There are many motivations for me to be in both rankings, and for the NTSC one, I have already almost succeeded to do what I wanted (to be GOD!) [He’s reached GOD overall a few months ago already, so I’m not sure why he wrote that…], in PAL I will have the opportunity to play with the real French competitors, like Pierre L’Hoëst, Sébastien Holmière, etc…
Sensibly, The French community of SMK has a greater number of players in PAL, but it is also very active, which is all good for my own motivation !
In NTSC, I was beginning to feel alone, leaving Yves Daniel (Second ranked French in NTSC !) a bit too far behind for my taste !
In PAL it will be completely different, as the French GOD ranked players are all very good, and to compete against Pierre, who is now PAL champion will be the biggest of any SMK challenge, as I don’t imagine ever being able to beat him… Tongue
But at least if I could know about my skill level, and see how far I can go, but I am well conscious of the difficulties in SMK PAL… Roll Eyes

SMK PAL is and will remain for me, the purest Mario Kart, because as I am one knowing well both versions (and not from the emulator !) I can say that the PAL version is way harder than the NTSC one, as much to get and release boosts than for the adherence changes between the different circuits, and the kart handling, yes I believe (for the moment) that I would have an inferior level in PAL than what I have in NTSC, that’s why now and maybe as soon as September I could prove myself that I can be stronger in PAL than in NTSC !

I thank the people here who support my idea, and I hope that this will never be of any problem for the good working of the SMK players’ site and the Non-NBT site !
A special thank as well to Sami and Simon for their eventual work with me on their site, especially Sami, because chances are that he’ll have to deal with a total set of 120/120 PR’s with me (60 PAL TIMES and 60 NTSC TIMES !!!)  Lips Sealed Shocked Grin [That is, 40 Non-SC times for each version, but also 20 trick times that he has achieved in half of the tracks]

Thank you!

As you see, I like SMK so much, that I want it twice rather than once…  Wink

To all, have good PR’s on every Mario Kart, whatever version you may have, and long live our best kart game ever, SMK, our common passion !  Wink


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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #16 - 07/10/04 at 09:06:47  
Just wonderin if you could put a link to this topic on SMK player page so that most active karter would check it and add a comment. Or you can ask them by e-mail or a messenger but it would be interesting to read what they have to say.

Just a thought
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #17 - 07/11/04 at 10:35:12  
Everyone's brought up excellent points, and I don't really have anything new to contribute to the discussion. Smiley
I personally don't mind at all if Christophe is officially ranked in both NTSC and PAL. Sounds good to me.

....On second thought, if he was only officially ranked in PAL, then the CI2 WR would be up for grabs! Wink
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #18 - 07/11/04 at 21:38:45  
I do see the point that objects being double ranked, but I go with what seems to be the popular flow and "vote" for allowing it.
If the player wants to compete in both, I don't see that much of a point in spoiling his fun  Smiley

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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #19 - 07/11/04 at 21:43:52  
)In my opinion, he should be allowed to join both sites!
Man, if he has two systems, than he can play two systems!

if you have a  NIKE shoe  and an ADIDAS shoe, you can wear both,   (but it wouldnt look so good  Wink

Vote for Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time

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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #20 - 07/11/04 at 22:43:46  
hello all...

it has been a long time since i didn t come here (since the story of non-nbt site  Grin Roll Eyes )

i see that the only ones who are against the "double ranking" are samy and simon who are the webmasters. they say they do not agree because it could confuse/ be unfair to other players (the non double ranked ones). all the players that gave their opinion told they were for the double ranking. i m for too!  Cheesy if the others players don t give their opinion, it s because they don t matter, so they are not against! considering this, i see absolutely no reason at all to forbid the double ranking (except maybe some... hum... abuse of power from the webmasters... Lips Sealed Shocked Grin )!!! the golf tour example is great, i was just searching for an argument too but this one fits perfectly!  Smiley

anyway, if you are borned and still want to forbid it (without true reason, or not for the ones you told here), be sure that one day or another, some players will use false identities to be in both rankings, and THAT would be a stupid situation that occured just by your fault (the webmasters).  Undecided Angry Tongue you should also recompense christophe to be honnest instead of a "liar/ tricker"  Wink
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #21 - 07/12/04 at 09:08:30  
Cédric, when this kind of issue arises, you seem to think that the site's webmaster(s) (Sami before; he and I now) are the enemies to defeat and that he/we want at all cost to keep people from weighting in the final decisions that are taken. I clearly said, as far as the Non-NBT site goes, that I would go with the popular opinion at the end, so looking at the posts that have been made so far, you do not really have to be worried about myself being "borned" (stubborn).

I'm convinced that Sami wishes the best for everyone as well when such decisions are taken, and the Non-NBT site (which was his personal "plan" initially) is a perfect example of a conflict that has turned out for the best at the end. When the popular opinion simply goes straightfoward against your personal strong beliefs, however, sometimes you just can't go on with your work and act like everything's fine for you, when trully, what you do just doesn't mean anything to you anymore. An easy example of this was during the rise of the first NBT techniques, by the end of 2002; If, let's suppose it, I had been the SMK players' site webmaster back then, no matter how much players wanted to keep these NBT's flowing, personally, I would have just refused to keep updating the site with times and WR's that simply means nothing to me, so I would have probably ended up giving up the job and lending it to someone else.

If, with the current issue, some people feel the same, working against them would be far less effective than working in cooperation with them, because we all have valuable reasons to think what we think, and at the end, we all want to get the best out of our community.

Oh and Cédric, suggesting that everyone who hasn't posted on here has to be someone with no opinion on the question may be a little inappropriate. A lot of people just never look at this message board, some will never post no matter how involved they are in a given topic, and some may feel intimidated by the current players' opinions leaning almost exclusively towards the same way. I'm not suggesting that a bunch of opposers to the NTSC+PAL idea are all hidden somewhere in a dark corner to be found, and to tell the truth, Sami and I are indeed the only people I know of so far whose personal opinions are leaning more towards a "no" than a "yes" or "I don't know". (which I must admit surprises me!)

Well, I think that's it. I hope nobody feels like he's being left out by the discussion, and I hope nobody will have the silly idea to make up a false identity just to have his other version's times somewhere in the official site's ranking. (what kind of personal credit would he get out of it, anyway?)

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you should also recompense christophe to be honnest instead of a "liar/ tricker"  Wink


What? I thought Christophe had 20 trick & glitch PR's...  Roll Eyes
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holmieresebastien
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #22 - 07/12/04 at 10:15:18  
well, ntsc and pal are different so why couldnt we be ranked in both ?

i think its not unfair because some people are happy to see new challengers  (and its harder to play both cos' its double amount of PRs to collect  Tongue)


i dont think there will be a lot of people to send in both systems , only people who are ultra motivated (like christophe) will do it

also i think we should only allow good players to send in both systems cos' it would be more relevant

----> like saying : "hey guy try to be good at one system before trying to send times in both systems " Wink

and sami and simon can judge of the player's level needed to be relevant enough to tell the player that his double "sending" will be relevant (or not)......
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holmieresebastien
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #23 - 07/12/04 at 10:18:31  
mmm.... the problem for the player will be to predict which version he will be better with  Roll Eyes
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PYLemire
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Re: Being ranked in PAL and NTSC at the same time?
Reply #24 - 07/12/04 at 14:41:37  
Yeah but that would be unfair to have to get to a certain level before submitting time for both system.

As for which system they will be the best at well if they bought both system they will probably play both anyway Smiley so they will send only one and after they finally reach that barrier they will submit their other half.

And I also think that new people to the game won't even think about buying the PAL/NTSC cart they don't own with the same system.
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