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Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy (Read 579 times)
JS
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Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
09/12/03 at 04:35:49
 
I know I've e-mailed the webmaster and also posted on the old message board by mistake but I have to bring this up:

I have seen the PAL world records on this website, and I seriously doubt whether some of the times are genuinely PAL times. Here is an example:

On Rainbow Road, I have achieved a time of 1:29:51 with a fastest lap of 17:68 (Donkey Kong). I have saved this race using the Ghost feature so that I can see it again. It took nigh on two years to achieve and is achieved through a slow and arduous incremental improvement on my time. Every lap, I have hugged the corners and used the greatest amount of swerve (in some cases skipping whole parts of corners using a well-timed jump ending in a swerve) on each one. Any more swerve and cutting would literally mean dropping off. And still the world record on your site (by Sami) says 1:27:36, which has shaved 2 seconds off my time, and not only that, the AVERAGE LAP TIME is faster than my fastest time! This is incredible, just play the game and you will see what I mean. Getting a sub 17:70 lap is a near impossible feat in itself involving daring corners, and to do it every lap is well, impossible. And a 17:35 lap as shown by the world record? That is inconceivable unless the characters go faster on some versions that others. I'm sure players that have played the game would certainly agree- believe me, I am an "expert" on the game with more than 10 years of experience, and can tell when a time doesn't seem right. On a second note, I downloaded Sami's video of it, but the video only goes up to the third lap, and that is still not proof it is PAL- it could be an emulator, NTSC or a copy of the game run using Cheat Cartridges.

As for Vanilla Lake 2, as any veteran of the PAL version will tell you, a sub-10s lap is only humanly achievable using a star on 150cc/100c mode (and even then it is hard to achieve, after hundreds of times playing the Special Cup, this occurs very rarely), and not in time trial mode (where the speed of the karts is considerably slower). I don't want to sound like a bitter person, but..... it's just not possible! Please try it on the game, there's not exactly loads of shortcuts on the course where you can save time on.

Seriously, have any of you experts (who are not acquainted with the webmaster) ever seen this been achieved?

JS
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Michael
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #1 - 09/12/03 at 08:38:57
 
I've seen a VHS tape with some complete SMK runs of Sami's races. And I've seen #2 ranked Michael Jongerius play in person (and getting some times that beat Sami). So, I'm sorry to tell you, but the times are really true. I don't know how they do it, but they somehow manage to get a few hundredths faster on each corner then other players (like me) that already race with perfect looking cornering.

Btw, some times are faster because of grass/dirt-boosting techniques. Not rainbow road though.

And also: someone with good knowledge of SMK will be able to tell the difference between a true race and a gameshark enhanced race. And PAL and NTSC races also look different.

And btw, I don't think it's wise to accuse the webmaster of cheating on his own site, when about 20 other players on the site are beating your RR times as well...
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thomasgx1
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #2 - 09/12/03 at 22:28:25
 
I live 15 minutes from Sami and have seen Sami kart on every format the game has. Believe me, theres nothing falso going on here. It's not fair when he sits down on mk64 and shows you what a legend B flap looks like after not playing for six months making my years of playing look meaningless. As for SMK. What more proof do you need? There are vids available and Liems right- it's just a case of a bit here and a bit there, there are boundaries on the game which can be driven on yet to the eye look as if you shouldn't be able to. I know that some vanilla lake records were done by eradicating the blocks on the first lap and then going for it on lap 2/3/4/5 but i'm not sure whats teh status on doing that anymore.

btw- he rapes the mksc-smk tracks too.

tom
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JS
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #3 - 09/13/03 at 02:09:23
 
Well like I said, the RR vid doesn't go to completion, and from the video, the technique used is virtually the same as mine.

The reason why I am raising this issue up is just to express my sheer disbelief at some of the times, especially on RR. Consider an analogy: somebody who has been playing Streetfighter Turbo II on the SNES comes up to me one day and says "Hey, I managed to complete the game on Turbo 10 on 1 credit with 24 perfects," I'd be hard pressed to believe that. Or to have another analogy: the world record for the men's 100m is near 9.7s, if some person said he saw someone run 100m in 9.2s, then my jaw would not only drop, but I'd be a bit of a mug to believe that.

About the RR time, I would believe it if the top time was within 1 second of mine, but to be 2s ahead, that seems strange, since the only way to save substantial time is on the corners, and in the game, it's just a case of pushing right or left in varying degrees whilst applying the L and R buttons, and this doesn't give much scope for discrepancies in time if you pull it off at the right times. I look at my race, and I ask how did he save 2s? Can it be through cutting larger gaps using L and R than I did? But I have "cut" the largest gaps possible, or very close to it on every corner (any more would mean dropping off). Can it be that he swerved and hugged the corners more? But I have hugged the corners like nothing (if I hug it more, I'd drop off), without letting go off the gas. In fact, I've tested the corners of the track through and through with different techniques, amount of swerves and the place of starting the swerve (most resulted in virtually the same time), and figured out which is best by reference to the ghost driver. So I can't really envisage it being logically possible.

Of course, this is my problem as I still see it as my words against yours, and I don't see the point of me dragging on this debate any longer since I'd just be repeating myself. The way I see it, unless someone sets up an official smk timing organisation, I'd still doubt some of the times, and this post is just the voice of people like me who doubt some of the times.

If the times are genuine, then well, there's no doubt about it, they're truly fantastic times.

On a final note,  I think that the best smk player should not solely be judged on time trial times (although it is important), but also on how they compete in races against other opponents, where devious tactics can be employed.

JS
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Michael
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #4 - 09/13/03 at 03:13:36
 
Dude, your rambling only makes you look stupid. It's not "your words against our words". It's your ignorant "words" against our video-tape/eyewitness-evidence/years-of-competition-experience-based "knowledge".

You're grossly overestimating yourself. I, for myself, know that 1'29"51 on PAL is a very good time that requires virtually perfect driving. But as I tell, even after getting a virtually perfect looking race, it's still possible to shave off more time.

All other players in the top30 of the world are in the same boat as you. They spent YEARS on this game, drive virtually perfect races, yet still get beaten by Sami Cetin and Michael Jongerius by 1 or 2 seconds. You are not, I repeat NOT, the only one who can drive a race which has cornering that seems to look perfect. Many other people to that. But they don't complain. They just compete for what they're worth, and have great respect for everyone else who beat them.

Your time equates more to something like 10:50 on the 100m dash. Takes years of daily training to get, and almost a dutch national record. But without the international competition to test yourself against, you will find out that you fell short to the top times of 9"80-10"00.

And this IS an official time trial organisation (affiliated with twingalaxies.com). The top players and top times on our site ARE proven (eye-witness evidence, several proof tapes, and a few online vids).
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #5 - 09/13/03 at 05:17:05
 
Even if i trained for 10 years I wouldn't be able to run a sub 10" 100 m dash and probably neither would anyone on this message board. But do I believe that someone is capable of running a sub 10" 100 m dash? Yes. I do because I realize that I am not the best at everything I've ever done, not by a long shot, and I accept the fact that there are some people in this world that are much better than me at certain things. It's the people who think that they just have to be the best at something who really bug me. These people go around believing that they are the best thing to happen since sliced bread but sooner or later they realize they aren't and then either deny it or throw a little girly temper trantum. Well sorry to break the news to these people but chances aren't the best at whatever it is you do. No, I mean it... you suck. LOL

And I'm not just singling out JS (ok I am but I digress) there are plenty of other people like JS who have a harsh reality-check when they see the SMK/MK64 records.

Perhaps SMK needs a vid page like our page [ www.mariokart64.com/vids/ ]
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shadow wrote on 06/10/03 at 04:55:18:
It goes (from hardest to easiest): NTSC -> Gallo NTSC -> Australian PAL -> English/Irish PAL -> Dutch PAL. Everyone knows that.
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JS
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #6 - 09/13/03 at 07:50:28
 
Er, I never said I was the best smk player or anything like that. I raised doubts about SOME (hint: not ALL) of the world record times that are here. Doesn't exactly imply that I'm the best at smk does it (never mind that I am the best at everything, eh xCepheus)? I have tried to give reasons as to why I think the RR race times might be impossible, to the best of my experience (and believe it or not, I am actually very good on that track, but probably not THE best, I hasten to add in case anyone misunderstands). That's all. I raised my doubts. Isn't a heinous crime, is it?

And I admit the 100m race analogy is not 100% perfect. Of course you would believe someone could run under 10s because you've seen it on TV, whereas I haven't seen the RR time being achieved. Note this doubt again does not mean I am trumpeting my own skills and saying I'm the best at the whole game.

And seriously folks, you sound like I've said something sacriligious, throwing all these cheap jibes at me (girly tantrums, stupid, you suck etc) as if I've offended you deeply. xCepheus even started a very condescending moralising speech. Just state your side of the flipping story, there's no need for these jibes, I didn't exactly throw insults about all of your personalities, did I? Of course, I don't take them seriously, but it's just so sad to see.

In case this passed you by, I said that if the times were genuine, then they are truly fantastic, and since you're certain they are genuine, then did you not notice this compliment? If they are genuine, then all my smk respect to the person and well done. You're a better player then me obviously.

As for my RR time, I may improve upon it in the future, I may not.

JS

P.S. I won't be posting anymore, so feel free to insert comments like "yadda yadda but you sounded like an arrogant twat," "yadda yadda you implied you were the greatest," "yadda yadda we know people that make you look crap," etc, and gain a huge vacuous moral victory in the process. Because quite frankly, I've no time for people that put opinions into my mouth (e.g. I am the best at smk) and judge me on the basis of two measly posts on a message board.
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #7 - 09/14/03 at 00:17:51
 
JS,

Your 1'29"51 sounds very good. Well Sami's vid shows a 1'27"91 run but as it doesnt go to completion you cant see the total time. All you can see is a very good player, but there's no proof of a WR.

And his 1'27"36 is not proven either.

Howerer, there's a vid of a 1'28"21 run (by Jerome Gava). http://jgava-smk-proofpage.fr.st/

This one goes to completion, and ... its "only" a 0'01"30 improvement over your time, but "the AVERAGE LAP TIME is faster than your fastest time!"

As for VL2, a sub-10s lap is achievable by the top players. Do you jump across the small island ? See http://membres.lycos.fr/scoubsmk/hpbimg/VL2_f-lap_scoub.mpg (Julien Holmiere)

Again there's no proof of Sami's time.

As a conclusion :
- your doubts are justified
- Sami how about another tape ?
- the mentionned vids should help you

JS, why not submit all your times ?

Cheerio


PS : dont judge the users of this message board on the basis of two users either.

Alternatively you can send messages to supermariokart@yahoogroups.com
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Michael
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #8 - 09/14/03 at 10:16:03
 
Do you allways post anonymously at messageboards?
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #9 - 09/14/03 at 21:39:21
 
JS, I apologise for quoting just bits of your message and responding directly to those, because this is a very convenient way of avoiding questions and replying to what you have posted as a whole. Still, I've said so much in this letter I think I have answered most of what I intended to.

I'm sure players that have played the game would certainly agree- believe me, I am an "expert" on the game with more than 10 years of experience, and can tell when a time doesn't seem right. On a second note, I downloaded Sami's video of it, but the video only goes up to the third lap, and that is still not proof it is PAL- it could be an emulator, NTSC or a copy of the game run using Cheat Cartridges.

I don't mean to insult you by saying this, but I'd think that in the 10 years that you have played the game, you have achieved times of your own that you never thought would go as low as they have. I know that when you plateau on a course and seemingly can't produce any faster times, and gets increasingly difficult to see more potential, but I would think that with so much experience you would humbly accept that times can go lower.

Er, I never said I was the best smk player or anything like that.

No, you didn't, but I don't think this is what anyone is getting at. I think it's your approach and attitude towards this that annoys people. xCepheus stated fairly clearly (and perhaps with an unnecessarily insulting tone)  what he/she disliked about it, and, not so much because I feel that I have to defend xCepheus - he/she takes care of that well enough him-/herself  Wink , as much as because I believe it to be the case, I have to say that I don't think that what he/she said was specifically aimed at you.
Besides, and I'm only putting this at the bottom of this paragraph because I couldn't fit it in anywhere else, so it's not for some sort of closure.
Not saying the actual words 'I am the best SMK player', does not mean you aren't putting it across anywhere else in your message. That sounds harsh admittedly, but what I'm saying is that the confident tone in your message and description of your driving implies that you are, if not the best, then at least very experienced in RR (which is what we're discussing, so bringing up that you never questioned anything else is beside the point), in fact experienced enough to, and this part will regurgitate what Michael said, not point in denying it  Wink, state that the record times for RR are not possible on a PAL cartridge, and still sticking to this after seeing video evidence that suggests otherwise.

What you did say though was that achieved times are "inconceivable unless the characters go faster on some versions than others". This makes most of us react, since we know this is not the case, and that Sami's and many other players' times are completely genuine.

the AVERAGE LAP TIME is faster than my fastest time!

Since there is no special strategy used for the fast lap it really shouldn't be so hard to understand that the average lap time is faster. The fastlap is a good indication of your arbitrary laps, and since Sami's fastlap is that bit faster than his average lap in the video, I wouldn't put it past him to achieve something a little slower than his best on every lap, especially given the obvious lack, if not non-existence of randomness in his racing line. (At least not potentially, I know you didn't say you did, but..  Especially not after seeing it evidenced on video.) Then saying that the W.R. is not evidenced because the video doesn't show the complete race displays some of that tantrum bit that xCepheus mentioned. (i.e. I didn't see the entire race recorded, so/and/somehow it's therefor beyond belief that he could complete the last two laps, after having driven three. OK, I am exaggerating to make a point, but that's what it sounds like.) Having seen the skill demonstrated in the video, I personally -  and  I can only speak for myself - I can't understand how you can be so dismissive of the record validity.

As for Vanilla Lake 2, as any veteran of the PAL version will tell you, a sub-10s lap is only humanly achievable using a star on 150cc/100c mode (and even then it is hard to achieve, after hundreds of times playing the Special Cup, this occurs very rarely)

Many of those people who have achieved a sub-10 lap in time Time Trial are veterans, aren't they?
Michael already mentioned this, no need for me to do it all over again, having nothing to add. Boy, I sure like to repeat things that Michael says in messages about RR and Time Trail veterans - and bring attention to the fact that I do.  Smiley

Don't hate me.. Happy;

Andreas Runnelid
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duffjr
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #10 - 02/23/04 at 08:16:04
 
i know this guy is long gone, but the friction on vanilla lake is smaller than the other courses.  you'll notice that when you use a shroom, and your high speed lasts for about half a lap if you don't hit anything.  this guy also doesn't know what a disservice he's doing for all those people who set those records.  on 150cc bc1 today, i got 1'14"89 with koopa and two feathers.
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sebastien holmiere
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #11 - 02/27/04 at 02:19:40
 
hey man you dont send your times to the gp150cc world records site ? Roll Eyes  arrr thats maybe because you only play emulator , buy a snes!!! Grin


also for a note , JS and others , the gp150cc world records may seem incredible , but if you check the techniques page , and the few videos , and with a few practice , you will see that records are truly reachable  Smiley

besides since two weeks i have done 9 new PAL WRs, i will maybe update the site next friday

and personnally i really have no problem with the top ranked players in time trial Smiley
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duffjr
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #12 - 02/27/04 at 22:17:02
 
na, i have the japanese version and us version and two snes's, but the tv here blurs the colors.   i also hate the snes controller in comparison to the playstation.  i can go over to my friend's to play, though.
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duffjr
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Re: Some Of The PAL Time Trial Times Look Dodgy
Reply #13 - 02/29/04 at 23:07:26
 
we just got a new tv, but the glass is still concave.  my friend has a projection tv that is convex.  i wonder if this round one is easier.
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