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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Double Dash >> A case against 50Hz https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1642221761 Message started by Parsimonian on 01/14/22 at 20:42:41 |
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Title: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 01/14/22 at 20:42:41 For nearly two decades, there have been two ways to play Mario Kart: Double Dash!!: 50Hz and 60Hz. Many years ago, 50Hz CRT televisions were the standard TV used in most of Europe, which is why a 50Hz option was included for PAL versions of the game. However, even at the time of MKDD’s release, 60Hz TVs were growing in number across Europe, which is one of the reasons the PAL game includes a 60Hz option as well. Because 50Hz is not included as an option in NTSC versions of MKDD, it is safe to say that 50Hz is NOT the intended way to play the game. It has been over 18 years since MKDD was released, and there are few reasons (if any) for a modern MKDD player to play on 50Hz. This document elucidates the reasons why the community should aim to remove 50Hz as an accepted way to play time trials, as well as what the community would gain from having 60Hz as the only way to play and submit times. Playing MKDD in 50Hz offers a significant advantage to those who choose to do so. Mathematically, the game running in 50Hz renders frames at about 83% of the speed of 60Hz. Since MKDD requires fast charging of mini turbos (MTs), especially at the higher level, playing the game in literal slow motion allows the player to charge much faster. This doesn’t only apply to MT speed; all inputs can be executed more slowly by a 50Hz player to drive at the same speed as a 60Hz player. To put this into perspective, a 50Hz player has 120 seconds of time to execute the same inputs that a 60Hz player would have to execute in only 100 seconds. This difference in time to execute inputs influences nearly every aspect of the game. R-tech is easier because you only need to release R for .06 seconds in 50Hz, rather than .05 seconds in 60Hz. There is a longer “window” for you to release and repress R in 50Hz than in 60Hz. This might not sound like a huge difference, however at such small time intervals it is massive because of how precise R-tech is. A-tech is easier, because in 50Hz there is more time to release A over fewer frames to make more precise line adjustments. Charging MTs quickly is much easier in 50Hz because there is more time to do so. 50Hz players even get more time to rest during cannon sections. Looking back at the reason 50Hz even exists, one might ask why this should be a problem. If people in Europe have 50Hz TVs, they wouldn’t have a choice to play in 60Hz, right? Well, at the time of MKDD’s development, in Europe, 50Hz TVs were already being switched out for 60Hz ones. Today, 60Hz is the gold standard across the world. All MKDD players in Europe have the option to play in 60Hz, either on a flatscreen, on a monitor, or on a CRT TV. It is NOT difficult for a European player to find a 60Hz CRT if they want to play in the “classic” way with minimal input lag. If anything, finding a CRT in Europe that is exclusively 50Hz is incredibly difficult for the average player today. The singular reason one played MKDD in 50Hz was out of necessity, due to the problem that older European TVs displayed only at 50Hz. This problem no longer exists. There is only one disadvantage to playing MKDD in 50Hz, and that is the number of attempts one can execute in a given session. On average, a 60Hz player can pump out the same number of attempts in 100 minutes that a 50Hz player could execute in 120 minutes; however, this difference is negligible in the grand scheme because of how significant the advantage is for 50Hz players. Given the same amount of time, a player will drive better times in 50Hz than in 60Hz, even though 60Hz offers more attempts in said timeframe. Some have argued that using 50Hz strains the player’s hands less (because input execution is slower), which is a valid reason to practice on 50Hz, but is dwarfed by the numerous advantages 50Hz offers. The only reason for a MKDD player to use 50Hz today would be to put themselves at a deliberate and conscious advantage over other players, most of which play 60Hz because they have no choice. To reiterate: PAL offers the option to play in 60Hz OR 50Hz. NTSC does NOT offer this option. The advantages that 50Hz players have are not available to NTSC players. Requiring 60Hz from this point onward would create a level playing field for all players. The community deserves a standard way of playing MKDD. A player shouldn’t have to think about comparing their times to others who have an unfair advantage. Of course, 50Hz has been important in MKDD’s history, with the early champions all playing it. But times have changed and now that we can easily have a fair and level playing field, we should. All 50Hz times currently on the players page should remain where they are, being grandfathered in, however all future times should be required to be played on 60Hz alone. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 01/15/22 at 02:49:48 Well, the truth is that 50hz is not THAT much easier. At top level, it's more about muscle memory than reaction time. I think it's kind of stupid to bring up something like this after all these years. As a top 60hz player I really dont care if others choose to play 50hz. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 01/15/22 at 04:51:11 I disagree with the idea of not letting competitors score new 50Hz PRs and have them updated. There's no need for such a decision!! Letting PAL competitors submit 50Hz PRs for years and then telling us, "We're not going to update your 50Hz PRs anymore is wrong!!" Yes, 50Hz has a small advantage, small to very small advantage but that's why there's 50Hz mode, 60Hz mode and AnyHz categories. If all us 50Hz competitors are unfair for playing 50Hz, pay no attention to the 50Hz mode or AnyHz mode and consider yourself ranked in the world where you are ranked in 60Hz mode ranks you if, 50Hz competitors really bother you!! It's not a big deal due to different categories, 50Hz mode, 60Hz mode and AnyHz. Disregard 50Hz mode and AnyHz if you are that bothered by them but, let competitors STILL submit 50Hz PRs. If I was still active, I'd be very angry if my new 50Hz PRs were never updated again!! Not fair!! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Etch on 01/15/22 at 06:35:42 This again, there are already separate charts...LOL! MAY THE BEST HERTZ PIERCE THE HEAVENS!!! http://i.imgur.com/eKECRVT.png |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 01/15/22 at 08:55:38 777061746C616A29606129736D6A706176040 wrote:
This is a very good point, Stephen. After sleeping on it, I came to the understanding that many might still want to play 50Hz regardless. Although there are advantages, 50Hz is still an important part of MKDD and shouldn't be shut down completely. I would modify the conclusion of my post to support the complete separation of 50Hz and 60Hz leaderboards (like how SMK separates PAL and NTSC) rather than ban 50Hz completely. I only have qualms about the combined (50Hz and 60Hz) leaderboard. I think the community would benefit from a removal of the old combined rankings and an addition of a new truly combined leaderboard for people who have both a 50Hz and a 60Hz timesheet, exactly like how it was done on the SMK players' page. Thank you for your input [smiley=dankk2.gif] Also, I want to stress that I made my post to bring my thoughts to attention. If people disagree with me, that's completely valid and I don't want to cause a rift between myself and other folks here. I just wanted to voice my concerns because it's been on my mind for quite some time (since I started time trialing last March). |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 01/15/22 at 11:27:15 Thank you Parsimonian! I hope I spelt your forum name properly! You speak in a very respectful and mature manner:) Sorry for my rant earlier if it was one, I do apologise! Due to my Autism Spectrum Disorder, I don't know if my previous post was a rant and/or assertive. Not sure. I think if I remember correctly, you are Jon Kay:) I say this because I also think you are a American ranked REALLY, REALLY, REALLY high in the AnyHz and 60Hz categories:) The reason I point this out is because I can ONLY imagine how frustrating it must be for you with your point of view when you are ranked really high and playing at a disadvantage! You are Hero or Titan for the time being I think and you are still getting better! A LOT better! What I am trying to say is, you want a level playing field and you happen to be truly world class at this competition! I don't like arguing or drama either. I never had the idea of ditching the AnyHz and creating a combined Hz for competitors who play 'both' 50Hz and 60Hz it's a fascinating idea that I've never thought of. I have a rough idea of what you mean because I am in the SMKPP rankings. Thanks for your mature response and sorry if my post was not nice, I get communication and social interactions confused. I can't imagine how frustrating the rankings must be from your perspective being ranked very high and being at a disadvantage from having 60Hz only access. It's a valid concern. Ocassionally, I am bothered by it too though, probably not as much as you. I wish competitions were 100% fair!!! In regards to your ideas they may be practical or not depending on what people and Alex decide can/can't and want/don't to do. I don't know what the answer is. In my opinion, I'd either leave things as are or add your idea AND keep the AnyHz leaderboards. This way, if the AnyHz leaderboards are kept AND your new combined leaderboard version of the current existing one both exist it pleases many people. Competitors can decide which leaderboards they believe in more. If I had to choose, I'd like your idea better than the old AnyHz as it seems more accurate. I still like the AnyHz leaderboard too eventhough, 50Hz competitors have a small advantage. Still, I wouldn't want to scrap the old AnyHz leaderboard as it is fairly accurate omitting the fact, an unknown portion of the community are probably cheating:( it's pretty much impossible to stop cheaters altogether when it comes to lying about PRs on any leaderboard. This is because the site is based on A LOT of trust which it MOSTLY is effective. There's A LOT of honest competitors among the cheats but this is another topic. I can't and shouldn't speak for other people though! In reference to how the community want to implement your idea or not. I don't know if it's practical and/or desired or not. I like your idea of adding a combined Hz leaderboard if, the old one stays. Competitors can decide which they feel is more accurate and which one they want to focus on if not able or wanting to do both. Also, I understand A LOT of people will probably say, "have 'one system'", but I disagree. Competitors should be able to decide which leaderboards are more accurate than others. As long as it's NOT too much work for Alex and other moderators. Again, that's up to them. I can't speak for other people. Thanks for discussion [smiley=dankk2.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 01/15/22 at 13:28:34 I appreciate your kind words, Stephen. Thank you, Also, you didn't come off as assertive or ranting at all, don't worry :). One of my closest family members also has autism spectrum disorder, so I understand that communication can be confusing sometimes. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 01/15/22 at 14:00:36 Thanks mate:) You are welcome! Thanks for your understanding:) Good chatting with you! Goodluck with your PRs, you are a very strong competitor mate:) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 01/15/22 at 17:18:32 also I just want to add I dont think your point about being able to do faster mts and better r techs is entirely correct. if you look at my early videos when I was competing with the top 50z players my mts are much faster and my r tech is on par. I think it may give an advantage in timing and reaction but 50hz players cannot do faster MTS and better r techs just be cause its slower, the timing is just different. Also i like combined ranks because its fun to beat the top 50hz times as a 60hzer [smiley=lolk.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by IsThatAGoodTime on 01/15/22 at 18:29:41 Also you can try the green rankings here https://www.mariokart64.com/mkdd/afn.php The reason they are green is green means Go. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by KarnivoreWithKevlar on 02/10/22 at 12:00:17 I play in 50 Hz mode because my TV doesn't support 60Hz, personally i don't find any differences from the 2 modes when playing on a newer TV but i'm sure it's there |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/14/22 at 11:21:08 I wrote this a month ago in the discord, but I've reworked it a bit and wanted to add a few things. If you've read it there already, I'd appreciate the reread :) So I'd want to start off with the fact that from the very beginning of me starting to play back in 2015, I've been firmly against 50hz being pitted against 60hz. A lot of things have happened in the community and on the leaderboards since then, but my view on 50hz has remained very similar. Ever since the early days, there's been a decent consensus on that 50hz is advantageous. The easiest way to judge whether or not it is would be to look at the Mario Kart 64 leaderboards -- Where PAL did not have a choice to play 50hz or 60hz and see what dominates the top level rankings. I'll bring this up a bit later as well. **Why Now?** I feel like this is probably an even more important point, so let me explain 1. It's only been since may 2019 that all records have been done with 60hz, and now, it is again slipping away. So for the first time since the game's release, in 2019, you could say 60hz was viable to pick. This meant that all WRs can definitely be beaten on whatever region you're from, and 50hz would not have the stronghold on the game as it had done before 2019. And even then -- It's not like 50hz wasn't better at the time, there just weren't any players who would take up the job of playing it. 2. Some of the questions people have had about 50hz and 60hz have only gotten answered recently. I've heard the argument that maybe 60hz can get faster MTs than in 50hz, but we can see from TAS gameplay that the fastest MTs are still way faster than what 60hzers achieve nowadays. Then as we can see from mattilde's gameplay, clearly 50hz can compete with 60hz and outperform it, so it's not like the old wave of 50hz players were pushing the definitive limit of 50hz. 3. On top of that, a lot of players who were active during the first boom of MKDD (Richard, Andreas, Bunde) and people who followed their 50hz steps are now not playing anymore, and especially not because they *had* to because of technological reasons or competitive reasons. The only reason to pick 50hz now is that you prefer playing the game that way or that you want a competitive advantage. 4. And lastly, this change should've never have been a potential change -- I think combined should've always been a 'novelty' leaderboard, something to look at that's fun statwise, but not the main way of describing records, rankings, and overall performance. **50hz vs 60hz** I think there's a lot of reasons to solidify 60hz as the only way to compete against everyone. Here are my most important points: 1. Level playing field We have the ability to let everyone compete fairly against each other, no matter their region and if they're on a non-modded gamecube or wii. It will also enforce a "tournament" standard that often already is in place (see: speedrun.com | TT1Try Tournaments). 2. 50hz's massive advantages Not only can you have 120 seconds of input for a 60hz'ers 100 seconds, to me the reaction time and calmness of the gameplay plays a massive role. You have a lot more time to think about your adjustments, calm yourself down during slower parts, and even make more calculated precise movements to optimize MT speed for example. I can't help but describe it as massive as it really is at high level. 3. It's not necessary anymore. I mentioned this earlier, but in order to compete with people way back in 2003 and 2004, if 50hz would've been banned from the beginning, it would've required having a 60hz TV for PAL regions. Now these were already quite common and I don't think it was much of a problem anymore quite soon after that. Regardless, nowadays this is definitely not the case anymore. 4. The future An interesting thing to think about is that let's say 50hz remains active on the combined leaderboards, then starts dominating the top 10. Continue this cycle and you'll have a leaderboard extremely similar to MK64. In MK64, NTSC times barely get any recognition even though it is objectively more difficult to drive as such. The only times there'll be some recognition is if it's an NTSC WR -- But even that a lot of people don't care for. This plays into the fact that mkwrs.com is also fully combined (for both mk64 and mkdd), and thus, 60hz players will have to compete directly with 50hz to drive 'recognized world records'. 5. Indisputable advantages As a pro player myself, I know a lot of spots where 50hz could gain me a considerable advantage. For reaction time here are some examples: - Reacting to DKM's shortcut hop over the grass - Balancing on the DKM bridge - Micro-managing lines - Slamming into the fence 2nd hairpin in RR - Optimally reacting to any waluigi bump pretty much What it comes down to: A lot of 'pseudo-RNG' that is manageable by reaction rather than muscle memory, and fine line adjustment. To say 50hz' advantage is not that big wouldnt be true. 6. My own experience Here's the thing. I have no problem competing against people, as such is the nature of a leaderboard. I don't care if they'd be better, but the problem is that to me, competing against 50hz has never been fun. Be it when I was climbing up the rankings, or the defending I do now. For the people saying I should just switch if I think 50hz is so much better: Having played a bit of 50hz as an experiment, I personally felt like I was cheating. I had so much more time to react. But on top of that, to me, that's not how the game was ever intended to be made. JP doesn't have 50hz. NTSC doesn't have 50hz. It was a necessity. 60hz is the way the game was intended to be played, and it's what I enjoy playing most as well. That's what I like competing with. **So what to do?** I think that preserving history is extremely important, and I also don't want to hurt people playing 50hz. HOWEVER -- it is also hurting people who play 60hz to have to compete with 50hz, which, in active and total players, is now bigger than the 50hz-group. There's multiple solutions to this. I've thought about this a lot but I think the easiest and probably best way would be to keep the combined leaderboards, but dial its importance back and turn it into a novelty stat page. This way people can still see how they fair against each other, but can still care about a 50/60hz record feeling as a proper legitimate record. 50hz Players can still compete for 50hz records, and in fact, people would be looking forward to 50hz records and seeing what the game can be pushed to. They'd have a lot more worth, and so would 60hz records. On top of that, switching between 50hz and 60hz would also make more sense, as you'd have different rankings to compete in. 665C7B474E5B6E6840404B7B474641482F0 wrote:
I think everyone's aware of the specific rankings, but like I mentioned before the fact that mkwrs and every spot in the rankings, overall performance, etc is all default combined, says a lot about the dominance of combined. 705E544255476F7D514458300 wrote:
Because the game is slowed down, doing Faster MTs is easier than doing them on 60hz, which I think the main problem is about MTs in 50hz. Also, a lot of older 50hz players didn't ever bother trying to up MT speed to the max -- Even in MK64 this was the case until Xander G. came in and showed they can still be done faster on PAL (and NTSC) On top of that, keeping the combined leaderboard as a novelty thing would still allow you to compare for fun without for example feeling demotivated by having to compete with 50hz [smiley=beer.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by HugheyBoy116 on 02/22/22 at 22:18:17 Lol Goomba you are pathetic. From saying Emo being champ is not justice for the community because your hands were dead, to trying to yeet 50Hz conveniently at the same time that Mattilde is starting to give some competition to you, from an outsiders perspective- you are a very sore loser. Also posting a long arse essay on Valentines day over Mario Kart? Lol touch grass and get bitches |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/23/22 at 05:40:02 That was a very lengthy post Goomba and you didn't really say anything different than what's already been said. I find it interesting that you make out 50hz to be so much easier when you have completely crushed all the top 50hz times. To me it seems like you are pretty much calling them bad. ;D tbh, I dont think you would improve your prs that much by switching to 50hz. And I dont think someone will easily beat your 60 hz times playing in 50hz. ;) Prove me wrong. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/23/22 at 14:09:07 0D30222D203C072A3C747473450 wrote:
I know exactly what I've said, what I stand for, and I don't need to re-explain myself with you trying to bait me into anything. This has nothing to do with me trying to defend myself. If anyone truly believes otherwise, then that's on them. There's no hidden agenda here, and what I claim now, like I said in my post, I've claimed since I've joined. Am I not allowed to share my opinion on 50hz when it's relevant? Also I love how you go on about personal attacks in arguments but here you are [smiley=bath.gif] 557B716770624A5874617D150 wrote:
True, I suppose I could've cut down in length considering what's already been said, but I'd rather be fully clear than skip parts. There's a few points that haven't been addressed properly, for example why now we know more than ever before, so I wanted to make sure I got everything across. tbh if 50hz wouldn't require me shifting over my muscle memory, I would've long gone and properly tried it but considering my current state, I'm happy I have any muscle memory every time I play the game. edit: also just to be sure i'd like to make clear im not calling any 50hzer bad or whatever, I just think in the long run 50hz has more human potential than 60hz |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/23/22 at 16:42:58 I'm glad you brought up muscle memory, as we both know this is more important than reaction time at high level [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Max28 on 02/23/22 at 17:22:32 527A7A787774150 wrote:
I'm not afraid to say it: if you play 50hz for the competitive advantage, now that all the records are (were) 60hz, you are a chump. I absolutely think less of you as a person and a competitor. The ideal solution would be to ban new 50hz times, but I understand that their could be players who can still only play in 50hz somehow. A more ideal solution would be if people understand how fortunate we are to have moved past the days of shitty split records and agree to compete on the level, more exciting and fun playing field (60hz). People playing 50hz at top level today drag the game back. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/23/22 at 18:54:20 Man you guys really take this game way too seriously. It's a fuckin video game and if Goomba wanted to play 50 it wouldn't make me think anything less of him as a person. I just have major doubts that he would significantly improve his times if he switched. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 02/23/22 at 19:37:43 There are different categories. Why do we need to stop accepting new 50Hz PRs? Unneccessary!! If 50Hz is unfair, than ignore it's rankings and AnyHz as well!! I don't understand the issue in continuing to update 50Hz PRs. People who have an issue with 50Hz PRs can focus on 60Hz rankings mode dismissing 50Hz mode and AnyHz. Plus, 50Hz has a very small advantage. I don't beat any 60Hz God or Goddess because I play 50Hz and they play 60Hz. I am extremely worse in comparison to Gods and Goddesses. Just let 50Hz competitors submit 50Hz PRs, thank you!! Any personal attacks on me will hopefully be ignored! I have the right to submit 50Hz PRs still as do competitors who wish to play 50Hz!! There's hardly any difference in PR scoring and they are separated into the appropriate categories. Simple and straight forward!! My PRs should be A LOT closer, (my 50Hz PRs should be much more similar to my 60Hz PRs than reflected on my profile. Should be much more similar. I prioritised 50Hz over 60Hz for a very small advantage). This doesn't impact the 60Hz rankings so I've done nothing wrong. When I joined the competition, I didn't know I had any advantage from playing 50Hz. Now I know, it doesn't matter because there's hardly any difference but more importantly, they are separated into different categories. I might not even look at this topic again as it's pointless and frustrating!! Any personal attacks on me, I'll try to ignore! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Max28 on 02/23/22 at 20:43:41 5478612B21190 wrote:
This wasn't meant to include you, Stephen. It was specifically meant to not include you. I understand there are people who only have access to 50hz, and they should be able to play and enjoy MKDD Time Trials. I meant people, particularly at the top level, who can play 50 or 60hz and specifically choose to play 50hz to gain an advantage. I'm sorry you interpreted it this way, this is not a personal attack on you. I will explain my position by outlining the starting points and logical flow.
From these starting points, here is my logical thought: In the past, some records were 50hz, and some were 60hz. This was an unfair playing field. Having an unfair playing field forces 60hz competitiors (at a disadvantage) to have less fun and be more competitive, or have more fun and be less competitive. Recently, all the records and highest-ranked players were all playing exclusively 60hz. In effect, this was a level playing field where all the competitors had more fun than if they were playing 50hz. Everyone was better off than in the old situation. After this new norm had been reached, any top-level player scoring records in 50hz forces players back to the old norm with the choice: to have less fun and be more competitive, or to continue having more fun and be less competitive. One person benefits competitively while everyone else's benefit is reduced. Players choosing to play in 50hz while everyone else is playing 60hz choose themselves over the community: they value getting higher-ranked times for themselves over the community's overall benefit. They un-level the playing field and make the game/competition worse for everyone else. There was an established social norm that top players would only play 60hz, since it is more fun, a level competition, and almost all players have better access to it. Players breaking that social norm (legally) for a competitive advantage choose themselves over the community. This is a parallel that can be drawn across different situations in the kart community (hoarding being the obvious example). From these starting points and this perspective, choosing to play in 50hz for the competitive advantage, in the current situation, is a selfish act. I judge people based on their actions. Therefore I think less of these people, although they may not fully understand the effect of their actions on the community. 50hz cannot be reasonably banned since there is still a vanishingly small group of people who can only play 50hz. However, the social norm of playing 60hz at the top level should be upheld for reasons outlined above, and I disagree fundamentally with those who choose to break the social norm. The ideal solution would be if everyone just agreed to play 60hz if they can (which is almost everyone.) If anyone can reasonably dispute my starting points or logic, go ahead. I don't really have a vested interest in the situation, other than as a viewer, but these are my thoughts. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 02/23/22 at 20:59:13 Also, I have ZERO idea how the law works, zilch!! I am NOT giving legal authority as I am NOT in a position to! IF and let me be very clear, IF you have the legal rights and necessary permissions to make your own MKDD!! website for Time Trial 60Hz only, IF and only IF you have the legal right which I can't approve legally. IF the appropriate body of people, (authority) grant you permission, go ahead and make your own world rankings for Time Trial 60Hz ONLY MKDD!! Do NOT prevent me and others from submitting 50Hz PRs in Time Trial or GrandPrix on Cyberscore or any other competitive website that already allows 50Hz PRs!! I don't give permission to make ANY website. It's NOT my place or legal right. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 02/23/22 at 21:10:18 After typing my last post, I read the beginning of yours Max28. I haven't read all the content of long posts in many cases. I didn't think you were personally attacking me Max28. I am fearful of anyone in general hating on me with vicious words in general, anyone as the conversation between some has got very personal and heated. Personally I think all levels top or below should be allowed to play anyHz and submit to anyHz they like even if they are top competitors. I understand this excludes me. Eventhough I am NOT a top competitor within the world rankings I still feel top competitors in the world rankings SHOULD be allowed to submit 50Hz times too. There's separate 60Hz records that aren't in the same category too. Eventhough this is irrelevant at my level, I still stand up for top 50Hz records being updated. I am less concerned though, I must admit since I can probably still submit new 50Hz PRs myself:) We disagree but I don't mind, all good:) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by HugheyBoy116 on 02/23/22 at 22:20:14 1D353537383B5A0 wrote:
I don't care about the 50Hz debate even slightly, you nerds can have fun arguing until you're blue in the face, but until there is someone/multiple people who can actually implement that 50Hz advantage to its fullest, in the modern era, this does not need to be discussed. I just wanted to get a dig in because why not. I will discuss that quote because it interests me- you try to make yourself look a good person and that you are above it all and try to act condescending. You even did the same in your reply saying I wont bait you before getting defensive about your intentions. Too easy to fuck with you lol. As for me? I just wanna be an asshole because its funny, I'm not trying to act above you, I have no right to. You and I are the same my friend. We both love taking shots at people, embrace it, it will do you good |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/24/22 at 00:09:41 4C4B5A4F575A51125B5A124856514B5A4D3F0 wrote:
QFT!!!! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/24/22 at 10:24:57 675A48474A566D40561E1E192F0 wrote:
I don't care about the 50Hz debate even slightly, you nerds can have fun arguing until you're blue in the face, but until there is someone/multiple people who can actually implement that 50Hz advantage to its fullest, in the modern era, this does not need to be discussed. I just wanted to get a dig in because why not. I will discuss that quote because it interests me- you try to make yourself look a good person and that you are above it all and try to act condescending. You even did the same in your reply saying I wont bait you before getting defensive about your intentions. Too easy to fuck with you lol. As for me? I just wanna be an asshole because its funny, I'm not trying to act above you, I have no right to. You and I are the same my friend. We both love taking shots at people, embrace it, it will do you good[/quote] I really am not, and I'll leave it at that. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/24/22 at 10:47:50 @max @stephen @andrew: Personally if someone wants to play 50hz they should have all the right to do so and enjoy it, and be on a leaderboard. My biggest gripe with it is the fact that it gets directly compared to 60hz, and that combined is the only focus as of now. As to where 50hz really starts impacting the game compared to 60hz, it's a difficult question. I think around the top 50 you can really see some results and especially at WR level. As to Andrew's claims, I think I could gain a lot of consistency / higher skill peaks with 50hz. Because MKDD isn't just solely muscle memory, it's reacting to exactly how your kart is positioned. You can watch any MK64 WR and see that PAL is more daring to stick closer to walls, because you have more time to properly adjust or search for that perfect angle. On top of that, it's obviously more lenient to do certain inputs like r-tech but we discussed this already Currently we're at an insane position where you realistically can get both records in 60 and in 50, but that doesn't speak of the future where it's likely that 50hz just has more human potential. I agree with what max said about the advantages of 50hz and how it can create an uneven playing field. It is not so much about being scared that 50hz is going to 'take over', but it's more that 60hz deserves to not have to compete with 50hz. And right now with combined being dominant, and mkwrs not having 60hz, it just doesn't feel like that's the case. If people ranked lower than #50 or so feel like they're being partly shafted so to speak by being compared to 50hz, then it's a decent discussion to see what people would prefer. Again, unlike any other time 50hz vs 60hz has been discussed, we now know more than anything and are in a better position than ever to make a somewhat radical decision if necessary. Lastly, I want to emphasize I have absolutely nothing against any 50hz player, be it Stephen, Mattilde, or anyone else. I'm happy to compete against Mattilde for example and see where we go, but I do not enjoy the specific 50hz competition. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Max28 on 02/24/22 at 11:41:37 6048484A4546270 wrote:
Totally agree with you and your perspective. But I'm not really sure I understand the proposal. You want to just get rid of the combined charts on the PP and separate the WR lists on mkwrs? It's an interesting idea. Although it may incentivize people back to grab 50hz records, particularly if they are their own mkwrs page. Or maybe you want to have just 60hz and overall pages on mkwrs? I guess if they are totally and completely separated, this makes more sense. It's hard to avoid obvious comparisons between the times though. And it does punish older 50hz players somewhat if the 60hz chart becomes the only thing people care about (with 50hz being separate and lesser). But I don't not like the idea. I personally like the idea of reinforcing the social norm to just not play 50hz if the choice is available. Of course this is idealistic. To me this is like hoarding. We all agree not to hoard, to share our strategies and videos, and everyone is better off than if we all hoarded. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 02/24/22 at 11:48:07 Because I didn't read competitor's posts properly it took awhile for me to realise that no one or at least many are NOT trying to get new 50Hz PRs blocked from being updated at the lower levels. I am sorry if I made it sound like everyone was attacking me. It wasn't my intention. I was trying to avoid naming specific people who were more likely and now have been rude to me, not everyone in this discussion. Sorry to Max28 and Goomba aa well as anyone else I accidentally might have made it sound like had intentions to personally attack me, I never thought either of you did. I misinterpreted other's posts and got scared to have my say. Specifically I am afraid of some people on the forums NOT Goomba or Max28 plus many competitors are nice or neutral:) Very sorry to be so unclear about what I meant! Part of my miscommunication is not reading the posts properly. The other parts are not knowing competitors very well or at all plus my Autism makes communication MUCH MORE difficult eventhough I am smart and speak fluently. I often misinterpret and explain things inaccurately without realising it and only find out when people tell me or I work it out much later myself from reflecting a lot. By the time I grow my understandings much more accurately from reflection, conversations are truly over. I don't know when I understand and when I misinterpret basic conversation. I never felt attacked by Max28 or Goomba or most of the community for this matter or ever. Sorry for being unclear! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 02/24/22 at 14:52:10 I'd like to hop back in here and emphasize one of the points @Max28 just made. "it may incentivize people back to grab 50hz records" IMO this would be a very good thing. Let's just face it, someone getting a 50Hz WR today that beats a 60Hz WR is going to get some flak from a significant portion of the community. With a split leaderboard, there is no reason to 'look down on' someone getting a 50Hz WR (or just playing 50Hz in general). Heck, it would probably bring more people to try 50Hz, including myself! I hope I'm not taking Max's quote out of context, I just wanted to elaborate a bit. The way I see it, splitting the leaderboard legitimizes 50Hz in that sense. I don't anticipate that this proposed leaderboard split would actually happen, but if it did, 50Hz players have quite a bit to gain from it. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Max28 on 02/24/22 at 18:38:31 It's not out of context, but I think my fundamental problem with it is it's very difficult to actually separate the 50 and 60hz records. Paricularly since they are the same exact times, as opposed to a pal/ntsc in mk64 where they have to be converted for example. Especially with how long the combined charts have stood for, this is has been the standard for a long time. I find it hard to see how people won't compare the 50 and 60hz records, then discrediting the 60hz records if they are slower. But I could be wrong there. It does sound like a nice idea if people fullly embraced the complete split though. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by WAZZUPYOSHI on 02/24/22 at 20:26:48 436B6B696665040 wrote:
You think 50hz is better? Play it. You don't want to play 50hz despite thinking it's better? Then people playing 50hz are going to take WRs. No two ways around it. Metas shift, and top players change. You don't ban something because it changes things, and if you do you're a massive scumbag with an ego the size of the sun. 7F7F7F170 wrote:
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/24/22 at 21:35:55 4B677E343E060 wrote:
I find it tough to make a proper decision. On one hand, combined adds some players' incredible old feats and achievements that players can compete with and truly shine. On the other hand, it's technically an unfair fight that shouldn't be fully compared to regardless, no matter that it's the exact same time in the end. I find everyone's viewpoints very interesting and it has swayed me to think of more alternatives to making 50hz and 60hz co-exist without either one being at a disadvantage. Though a proper flawless solution is tough to find for now 0D2A3920244B0 wrote:
You think 50hz is better? Play it. You don't want to play 50hz despite thinking it's better? Then people playing 50hz are going to take WRs. No two ways around it. Metas shift, and top players change. You don't ban something because it changes things, and if you do you're a massive scumbag with an ego the size of the sun. 7F7F7F170 wrote:
Idk what you're on about but this 50hz discussion has been going on since the release of the game. The "meta" didn't change at all, it's just that for the first time ever 60hz outnumbered 50hz at top level, which allowed this discussion to even happen at all. I'm not calling for any ban either so while I understand you hate my guts, calm tf down I'm not going to play 50hz because I think it's better. It's about fun, it's about what I think is how the game is supposed to be played, it's about me trying to compete on an even level playing field. That's why I play 60hz. Idk how many times I need to say this but I'm solely talking about feeling forced to compete with 50hz because of the aforementioned reasons. To me, because of 50hz' advantages, it doesn't feel right. I'd argue this in mk64, I'd argue this in mkdd, I'd argue this in any game where there's a slower version. This has nothing to do with my position in the game or leaderboard. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/24/22 at 23:18:53 dude goomba I was able to keep up with the top 50hz players with no problem when I was active and I never complained like this. :-? When a top 50hzer beat my times I just beat them back instead of complaining. I have always known 50hz is easier since I started playing this game at age 11, and I got into many fights about it on the forum, but to say its "massively" easier is simply untrue and discredits the top 50hz times and players. The exact same shit is possible in 60hz. You are the #1 MKDD player in the WORLD. When someone dares to challenge you, you take the records back immediately. Why are you so opposed to 50hz all of a sudden? Just because matilde is playing it and heaven forbid someone beat one of your records lol. It's not like she wasnt already getting records when she played 60hz, so to me it looks like your undermining her accomplishments :-* :-/ I'm sorry, but to me, this looks like an attempt to get rid of any opposition to you holding all the WRs lol |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by InnovΔ on 02/25/22 at 06:50:11 LOL @ y'all trying to ban something that's built into the game and has been used by many players for nearly 20 years |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Icy on 02/25/22 at 07:24:20 My proposed solution is to click around on this box: http://https://i.imgur.com/liu8WGA.png |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Etch on 02/25/22 at 16:51:41 mkwrs isn't the PP but it sort of took separate courses on some sites, is that the problem? lol Also 50hz could use some work, rip best boi! [smiley=roll.gif] http://https://i.imgur.com/feC3r9H.png |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/25/22 at 19:24:07 4D63697F687A52406C79650D0 wrote:
Ah yeah, wasn't that bad 567872647361495B77627E160 wrote:
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 02/25/22 at 19:28:06 Also if one more person claims that I all of a sudden want 50hz banned or split or whatever just because Mattilde has beaten my DC flap (and MuC, RR obv), I don't know what to say. I've made these exact same claims all the way from the beginning. I've not even started this discussion or thread, and yet just for opposing 50hz you guys are making up complete assumptions about my character, and my reasoning. It just deeply hurts me that people think like this and personally I'd like to think I've been very clear in saying that it's not about potentially losing records (especially since this didn't impact me when I joined), it's about the fun in competition to me. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Etch 2.1 on 02/25/22 at 21:00:27 Goomba is the KC 2K18 Champion, in 60Hz 8-) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Robert McKinnon on 02/25/22 at 21:33:23 i think having many community leaders in favour of 60hz is a great opportunity to encourage players to care more about system records rather than restructuring the PP and mkwrs.com, in my opinion seems like the best and simplest way forward, and i think it would actually work as well |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/26/22 at 00:06:53 Dude Goomba look at the date of those posts ::) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/26/22 at 01:09:46 Goomba you are the best player in the world and I just don't understand why you're care so much about it when you easily crush the 50hz bitches. Once I was #1 I stopped caring about 50hz because I knew it can still be done in 60hz and that 60hz can still compete with 50hz. Be proud of your 60z superiority, and let the newbs play 50 if they want :-* You are the best mkdd player and playing in lovely 60hz, that's something to be proud of. ;) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by KiyoshiMKDD on 02/26/22 at 09:53:21 But hey, that's just a theory. [smiley=bath.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by InnovΔ on 02/26/22 at 13:07:11 Can't you just live replay the 50Hz ghosts in 60Hz or will they desync? |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Andreas Rudmarker on 02/26/22 at 15:39:43 ban 60hz! hihi [smiley=johncleese.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/26/22 at 17:20:11 ban goomba :D |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 02/26/22 at 18:32:49 Goomba has more human potential than others. Therefore people will be forced to be more competitive and have less fun with goomba on the charts. Most players will never be able to achieve goombas times. Therefore his times should be removed off the ranking. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by HugheyBoy116 on 03/02/22 at 00:56:30 Using comments made in 2010 when someone was 15 to destroy a 27 year olds arguments is peak Goomba. Love the research level, but no one cares dipshit. You're not as smart as you think, get off your high horse |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/02/22 at 18:49:33 I mean if I'm gonna be real, I'm not really sure what goomba even wants. Theres already a 50hz, a 60hz, and combined ranking. I also think a 60hz wr history page would be cool, so that's not bad idea. But as for the site itself: Just follow the 60hz only rankings if you dont like the combined ranks, but me and many other people prefer to use the combined ranks. I think its complete nonsense to act like 60hz cant compete with 50hz, especially watching how close to maxed some of your flaps are goomba. just my 2 cents, nothing personal against goomba. [smiley=bath.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 03/05/22 at 11:56:43 I had a look at Mario Kart World Records website and I agree with many competitors, only 60Hz world records should be acknowledged on that site. Whether or not competitors are saying this, that's my opinion. On MKDD!!PP I think it's fair to have 50Hz mode WRs and AF, 60Hz mode WRs and AF plus AnyHz WRs and AF. I think MKDD!!PP has got this completely correct:) I think the Mario Kart World Records website SHOULD exclude and discriminate against 50Hz World Records unless they are their own category and banned from comparison with 60Hz World Records on MKWRs website. I don't think this MKDD!!PP should change a thing as the categories are PERFECT. They already acknowledge everything fairly:) 60Hz against 60Hz and 50Hz against 50Hz. Those that don't like AnyHz shouldn't care too much as there's already 50Hz mode and 60Hz mode only charts/leader boards but on MKWRs it's unacceptable to say 50Hz world records count for anything since they have the advantage. Eventhough it's irrelevant to me, one reason why I stopped 60Hz for awhile is because 50Hz is easier to get slightly better PRs. On MKWRs ONLY 60Hz WRs should count to be fair to 60Hz champions, Gods/Godesses, legends. On MKDD!!PP It doesn't matter because 50Hz mode and AnyHz can be ignored if a competitor wants to only look at 60Hz only stats. I think very top competitors SHOULD be allowed to earn 50Hz overall World Records but ONLY on this MKDD!!PP because there's also the option to ignore 50Hz WRs but on MKWRs website as far as I know, there's no option to ignore 50Hz WRs if they unfairly defeat 60Hz WRs. It's NOT fair as 60Hz is a little harder and at top level, this shouldn't be ignored on the MKWRs website. Again, different story on MKDD!!PP as there's different categories to look after everyone's competitive needs but on MKWRs it's very unfair to compare 50Hz WRs against 60Hz WRs:( |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/05/22 at 20:24:06 Every 50hz record is totally beatable in 60hz. Acting like a world record isn't a valid performance just because its driven in 50hz is totally ridiculous. It's not like 50hz is this magical mode where anyone can play and just get world records, you still have to play extremely well and the advantage is seriously not as big as some of you are making it out to be. You guys seem to think 50hz has an indisputable advantage when it comes to faster mt and better r techs, and that's just not the case, you cant mt faster in 50hz mode lmao. It's just extremely bad sportsmanship from goomba against Matilde in my opinion. She beat a few of your times not because shes 50hz but because she is skillfull and put time into it. A good time is a good time, regardless of what hz it is played in in my book. The fact that 60hz can beat 50hz proves it isn't as advantageous as you think. Cant believe I would ever defend people playing 50hz mode. [smiley=lolk.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by KiyoshiMKDD on 03/07/22 at 13:04:04 6A444E584F5D75674B5E422A0 wrote:
[smiley=bath.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/07/22 at 16:52:02 I dont think so. ;) |
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Title: Re: Post by Illyon on 03/08/22 at 11:33:45 I don't really have anything relevant to add to this conversation, but as the designated representative of the silent majority I'd like to point out that this community has been doing its best job at deterring newcomers with fascinating amounts of toxicity, insults, personal attacks and overall negativity seeping through both the forum and Discord to an extent that I wonder why I even come here every few weeks to check on any news if all it does is give me the urge to write such a message in full knowledge that the people actually posing the problem will just assume I'm not referring to them anyway. Thank you, that is all. Carry on. |
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Title: Re: Re: Post by Max28 on 03/08/22 at 12:30:13 7F5A5A4F5958360 wrote:
I don't really have anything relevant to add to this conversation, but I'd like to point out that you just wrote a single 'sentence' of over 100 words. Please give us an example of who is deterring newcomers, I want to hear what the 'silent majority' has to say. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/08/22 at 23:13:23 I rejoined the discord for 2 days and it was just total drama and stupid arguments and mods with too much power, some of you guys need to stop focusing on mario kart so much and get lives, this 50hz discussion is the perfect example of that. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] 7F7F7F170 wrote:
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Space Muffin on 03/14/22 at 16:55:57 745A504651436B7955405C340 wrote:
you happened to rejoin the server during like one of two drama points in the last couple of years the server is really chill 99% of the time so idk what ya'll are on about |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/14/22 at 17:02:07 Dont make me laugh man, the fact that this 50hz discussion is even happening proves you guys arent chill and take kart way too seriously. 2 wrs in 50hz and you guys want it banned. Its beyond pathetic. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Space Muffin on 03/14/22 at 17:18:51 my bad, i didn't realize the 3 people in this discussion wanting 50hz banned were reflective of the entire discord server |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/14/22 at 17:23:54 Might as well be seeing as goomba the person who created the discord wants it banned |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/14/22 at 17:25:36 Also its fucking funny to me you said i rejoined during "one of two key drama points" lmao why is there any "drama points" at all. [smiley=flush.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Space Muffin on 03/14/22 at 17:26:53 i can tell you the majority of (in)active players in the discord could care less about the 50hz discussion they just kartin |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Space Muffin on 03/14/22 at 17:32:17 446A607661735B4965706C040 wrote:
there's drama in every public discord in existence, it's bound to happen |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 03/14/22 at 17:39:37 I don't even want it banned, I've already suggested a bunch of other possibilities and I'm done repeating myself The discord is chill so believe whatever you want to believe |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by HugheyBoy116 on 03/14/22 at 18:43:25 The Discord is only chill because you either ban everyone that speaks out against you, or they leave because they dont want to be a part of the bullshit in a Discord server where you get told off for posting too many memes in the meme channel. It is micromanaged to fuck by someone who does not seem to actually care about the growth of the community Discord is the main place for gaming communities to grow. We have seen nearly every other kart game grow massively over the past few years, except Double Dash, DD's active player count is almost as low as Super Circuit, and significantlly lower than MK7, and MKDS and they're both fucking handheld games lol. Theres other factors to this but the main public Discord server being so poorly managed is driving people away from the community and subsequently the game too. The fact I am comparing it to fucking MK7 and DD is losing, when it should be closer to MK64 or even MKWii is just depressing. The Discord communities of MK64, DS, and 7 arent run to shit and they are growing a lot. Wii is run to shit but it also has Troy and NMeade carrying the reputation of MKWii on its back so its in its own world In my own personal experience having had discussions and arguments with many people in the community about many different things, there is nobody with a more self righteous and disrespectful attitude as you Goomba, and there are way way way too many people that can say the same thing. If you weren't World #1 and the owner of Pubcord, no one would be gargling on your balls the way they do currently. Also, just to cover my bases, if you are thinking in your mind that I'm driving people away from the community too- I have done nowhere near as much as damage to the community as you. I have not been in Pubcord for nearly 2 years. No one knows who the fuck I am anymore yet the problem still persists. Look inward my fellow dickhead Tl;dr- Goomba is killing Double Dash because he sniffs his own farts too much |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 03/14/22 at 20:34:52 I didn't intend for this discussion to be riddled with personal attacks. I understand you all might have some issues with one another but this is incredibly disappointing for me. I started this thread out of my own choice to bring up some thoughts I was having about a game I care about, but it has obviously gotten out of hand. If you want to complain about others, make another thread. Also, my experience in the public discord server and the community as a whole has been overwhelmingly positive. I've met some great friends and they've challenged me to improve far beyond what I would have ever done alone. Why not make another server/community hub if you believe the current MKDD pubcord is so grievously mismanaged? |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by InnovΔ on 03/15/22 at 01:08:00 Finally, a community worse than MKW |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Max28 on 03/15/22 at 05:45:41 Classic forum moment when 2 guys just derail a thread with nothing but personal attacks at someone who simultaneously "takes kart way too seriously" and "doesn't care about the growth of the community." While also refusing to engage with any actual point or discussion on the topic. So which is it, and why are you so mad |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by KiyoshiMKDD on 03/15/22 at 15:57:04 1B3E3F1A302325510 wrote:
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/15/22 at 16:06:36 I wasnt really trying to derail anything, if you actually go back and read what I wrote I was clearly trying to argue in favor of allowing people to compete in 50hz and that the site shouldn't be substantially changed. I think its totally ridiculous that someone even started this topic to begin with. I really dont have anything personal against goomba. However, I dont think it's wrong of me to point out that he only posted that because of 2 WRs being in 50hz. In my mind, that's kind of lame. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by KiyoshiMKDD on 03/15/22 at 16:40:18 68464C5A4D5F7765495C40280 wrote:
[smiley=bath.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/18/22 at 23:14:51 273C2D3F3D2D3B273C3D540 wrote:
It would certainly be lame if that were the case, but you can't say for sure that that's the main reason. We shouldn't jump to assumptions. Innocent until proven guilty. EDIT: If you wanna argue against that, preferably do so outside of this forum topic [smiley=bath.gif][/quote] Quote:
Shit dude, I was gonna drop it, but you clearly dont know how to read. Like he literally says it right there in his post. :-? |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Paul Allain on 03/25/22 at 02:49:16 ''I was gonna drop this, but I am clearly not going to''. :P No personal offense, but that disclaimer rarely puts the following message in a good light. Seriously, how can you get so mad at a game having more than one settings ? OR at someone not liking that ? These communities are at their worst when they get into the minutiae of what are the true way to play the games and prove your times instead of, you know, playing the games in some way and having fun with it. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/25/22 at 13:26:33 I mean if someone's gonna say I'm wrong about something, when I can literally quote and disprove them, why wouldnt I ;) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by emoyosh on 03/25/22 at 21:34:05 I just finished reading this thread, and i have a thought that could maybe work... (If someone alr mentioned something like this, just tell me and ill shush lol [smiley=lurk.gif] ) Anyways, you know how you can only see your name on the 60htz leaderboards if you have times for 60htz, and vice versa for 50htz? I was thinking that maybe to even out the playing field for both hertz, we could revamp the combined leaderboards and make it so that you could only see your name in the catagory if you have times for both hertz or you wouldnt see your name on that specific leaderboard. Maybe this could eliminate the competition between people playing exclusively 60htz competing against people playing exclusively 50htz respectively. Or we could make this an entirely new leaderboard to not have to get rid of the original combined. Maybe where at the top of the original combined AF page where it's explaining how the leaderboards work, add something along the lines of "only look at this page if you have only 60htz/50htz times and you're looking for the competition" or something [smiley=chairshot.gif] My 1st suggestion would make it that you couldn't see the difference and stuff between both hertz so now that I'm rethinking it it wouldn't be the best option But the 2nd one might be better in the long run. It would make it so that we could keep the old boards for every player and it could make 50htz more viable as a play option, if you like both versions. I could prob type this out better but am tired [smiley=lolk.gif] Anyways that's my general idea, I hope this could help fix some problems for the community and leaderboards <3 |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/25/22 at 22:18:17 Is anybody down to fuck? Or we could just live things be. ;) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by hahaae on 03/26/22 at 09:57:18 18363C2A3D2F0715392C30580 wrote:
Andrew I like you quite a bit, always have. But I cannot condone you ever, ever using any post of mine to defend 50Hz. Gonna have to get a copyright strike on that one, haha. The objective fact of the matter is, if you play 50Hz mode in combined rankings, you're a b-b-b-baby back muhfuckin uuuuugly ass pussy ass bitch. This has always been the case, always will be the case. Jokes aside wasn't joking, combined 50/60Hz mode is literally the reason I never picked up MKDD or MK64 competitively, despite loving the games. Being forced to play at a disadvantage has absolutely no place in rankings. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/26/22 at 15:16:31 You're already at a disadvantage with that kind of a mindset, assuming you cant beat someone just because they play 50hz kind of makes you the pussy |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/29/22 at 16:24:30 If 50 hertz was so much better as guys are saying matilde who was already a top three player before switching to basically would have all the world records by now ;) |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 03/29/22 at 17:46:27 1D33392F382A02103C29355D0 wrote:
Tuov D. plays 50Hz, just entered the top 10 after playing for only 4 months, and he got both DKM WRs yesterday. Your point is? |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/29/22 at 19:05:31 Who is this supposed player and why isnt he on the rankings list? I don't really believe that someone got two World Records after 4 months of playing 50Hertz. Either show a video or don't blatantly lie. :D Also it's worth noting that the fastest time it took for a player for to get a world record was konsta Jukka in 60hz about 5 months after joining in december 2006. [smiley=bath.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 03/29/22 at 19:41:08 Tuov Deez nuts in ur mouth lmao |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 03/29/22 at 21:30:51 Lmao got em |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Xander Giordani on 03/30/22 at 14:36:29 Each day we stray further from Steve Jobs |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 05/07/22 at 18:50:52 I tried 50Hz for about 30 minutes and got a 21.985 PB flap on my first attempt, less than two frames from my current PR. My MTs weren't even charging properly because I was going too quickly. For a player at my level in 60Hz to have maxed MT speed in 50Hz is ridiculous. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by mf on 05/07/22 at 22:45:50 What's so ridiculous about getting a time close to your PR on your first attempt? I don't think first try prs are that uncommon especially in the 50th-100th region. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Space Muffin on 05/09/22 at 10:52:58 I think he's trying to point out how effortless it was compared to 60hz, and having never touched 50hz before. Also I think I can speak for Parsi when I say that getting a first try almost pr is kinda rare. At least it is for me. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by mf on 05/09/22 at 11:10:09 I'm pretty sure that is skill transferring, which is to be expected. You are not going to play like you've just played the game for the first time just because you are on 50Hz. Also, his PR dates from december last year, when he was not yet in the top 100, so he definitely improved at the game since. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Xander Giordani on 05/09/22 at 18:17:44 The game is much slower than what he is used to. It took him a few attempts to get used to it and adjust for the slower speed. By using this it gives him more time to think about how to do each mt and turn, therefore making it much easier to get close to his pr quickly. If he put a bit more time into it he would have pred. For mk64 when i switched over, the same kind of thing happened. It took me about an hour or so to get used to it, and once I did prs were incredibly free. The argument of of Parsi being lower ranked cant apply to me here as I was low 20s with NTSC, and after 2 weeks with PAL I got to the mid teens. In no world can you say people are on equal playing fields here. MT speed can easily be maxed out on 50Hz for MKDD, while on 60Hz it is a real struggle to build it up and to be able to control it. 50Hz/PAL Gives the player a considerable amount of extra time to adjust to all the turns, and make minor adjustments much more efficiently. Trying to defend 50Hz and say it doesn't give an advantage over 60Hz is lying. The advantage is too big to just try and push aside and forget about. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 05/10/22 at 01:19:20 6F4A4B6E445751250 wrote:
If you were playing for 30 minutes before its not really a first attempt. [smiley=lolk.gif] In 50hz you cant spam the stick like you can in 60hz, you have to hold your mts much longer. That's why you miss those mts. ;) Good luck on your 50hz journey tho, you should beat your 60hz prs pretty soon if you continue. [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by flanders on 05/10/22 at 04:15:13 Alright, so after reading through this thread I think I’ve formulated my opinion on 50hz. Hopefully I’m not repeating what’s already been said here too much lol I do think that 50hz does provide an undeniable advantage. "Less attempts" isn’t advantageous enough for 60hz players to keep up with 50hz, especially at higher levels, where PRs usually take a large number of attempts anyways. However, I feel like it’s unfair to the 50hz players who have already worked for the ranks they achieved. The only solution that somewhat makes sense to me is to ban the submission of future 50hz times, but that’s still unfair to current 50hz players (Mattilde, Stephen dW, etc.), since then they would have to put in the time to re-learn the game at a different speed. At the end of the day, it’s just a way to play the game, and I don’t feel cheated having my times compared to those of 50hz. Imo, if you really don’t feel like 50hz times should be on the leaderboard, then just look at the 60hz charts [smiley=lolk.gif] |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Ultimarkh on 05/10/22 at 09:59:43 I just noticed this ridiculous thread... Are you guys for real? 7 of the top 10 players, and 16 of the top 20 (Aron even has a mixed timesheet) were done by 60hz players so the notion that 50hz players would dominate the PP is completely out of the window given that the game is now 18 years old. It's entirely true that 50hz gives more leeway with racing lines but you guys do not realize the amount of MTs dropped because of misregistration. That's why the "extra MTs" are so hard to add on 50hz. I will be in the very minority but there is no case against 50hz, unless you want to drive out players, which very much appears to be the underlying reason when reading most of the posts here. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 05/10/22 at 12:51:41 @Ultimarkh from personal experience there's no denying 50Hz has the advantage overall. This factors everything about 50Hz advantages vs disadvanrages. My efforts have had me do better in 50Hz and I've played both Hz A LOT. As for the very best players mostly been 60Hz only competitors in the top 10 and top 20, this is irrelevant. I say this because even the top 20 in the world have different potential at MKDD!! You can only accurately compare 50Hz results vs 60Hz results in the 'same' competitor's timesheets if they worked very hard at both 50Hz and 60Hz fairly equally in effort. The 'same' competitor vs the 'same' competitor. The 'same' competitor will always have the same hand eye cordination and reflexes versing their own abilities. If they play 50Hz and 60Hz fairly equally overtime, they'll have better results in 50Hz objectively. 50Hz has some competitive disadvantages but has it's advantages more overwhelmingly relevant. Comparing myself against myself, I have the advantage in 50Hz as does anyone who can access 50Hz and chooses to play it. Judging other player's success based on who plays what hertz is a inaccurate method of evaluation in my opinion because everyone has different skill and potential. Everyone has different hand eye coordination, reflexes, opportunity to sink time into the game and different stamina to keep being competitive. The best 60Hz competitirs defeated the top 50Hz competitors at a disadvantage because they are truly stronger in skill and/or determination. Maybe they had more free time? I don't know. Being #302 in the world, far from top 20 world wide is completely irrelevant. Personal experience versing myself, 50Hz overall definitely has the advantage factoring in all the advantages vs disadvantages. I have played both hertz A LOT! There's no way 60Hz is easier or equal overall. On Rainbow Road, recently I said, per lap 60Hz competitors are like a quartor of a second worse off per lap. Reflecting on it more, I think it's more like a third of a second per lap. 60Hz is a disadvantage to play with objectively speaking. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Ultimarkh on 05/10/22 at 13:23:01 You're literally expressing your opinion, not a fact. People have different opinions which is not what I'm arguing against. What I'm arguing against is the sudden discontent with how the PP has been handled for over 18 years, now (lol) that people playing 60hz are the majority here. I have also played both and chose to focus on 50hz because I had neither the time nor the patience to optimize both. Now that I have spent a fuckton of time improving my times, because like it or not, it is hard to PR whatever the Hz you're playing, imagine my surprise coming here reading that 50hz players should be banned from submitting further PRs or disregarding 50hz PRs in world rankings. Sounds like you guys are trying to mold the PP into something that fits your agenda under the guise of making it "more fair", which is bullshit. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 05/10/22 at 13:41:19 You can twist my words all you want. I 'never' said ban 50Hz submissions. I don't share that point of view. I am just being objective and honest, 50Hz has the advantage objectively! I don't have ANY agenda!!! Manipulate my words to your heart's content, I am done arguing with you! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Ultimarkh on 05/10/22 at 14:00:22 What are you on about lol I didn't say you were the one saying that. For the record here are the quotes I was referring to: 567372577D6E681C0 wrote:
5E726B212B130 wrote:
5C747476797A1B0 wrote:
Which does not exactly look like an open discussion but more like a plea to get rid of 50hz. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 05/10/22 at 15:24:26 @Ultimarkh while we disagree about whether 50Hz is easier, harder or level playing field, I wasn't going to respond to you anymore but want to acknowledge I had the wrong interpretation about what you said. I 'assumed' you meant 'I' also had an agenda to ban 50Hz. If you are telling the truth in 'not' accusing me, I am wrong. For this, I am sorry! I'll 'never' agree that 50Hz is level playing field or harder as it is an advantage. Top competitive results don't speak facts about which hertz is competitively easier to score top times for reasons I've already stated. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 05/10/22 at 16:34:56 0D342C3135392A3330580 wrote:
I'm not sure if the registration actually holds true because even though you have less frames per second, you don't need to do the same action you'd do in 60hz within a second of 50hz, so technically, you have the same amount of frames. There'd have to be someone technical looking into the aspects of 50hz and how inputs are registered, but on paper, there should be no difference in registration apart from that it's much easier to accidentally do a miniturbo too fast. I'm thinking of a test myself to look more into this Also just because 60hz dominated the last years, doesn't mean 50hz can't get it back. That's survivorship bias and also would mean that nothing should be adjusted until it's "too late". Again, I've said this over and over again, I personally have nothing against people who play 50hz or prefer it. But I do think that currently the combined chart is too dominant in current culture. Ofc I can just look at the 60hz charts, but mkwrs is combined, the news updates are fully in combined apart from when someone gets a hz record, and no one cares about 50/60hz performance until it gets pointed out by someone. So saying "just look at the green chart" makes sense but it's undermining the aspect of the community. Something simple as a news update with Bobby Bobson #10 (#15) where #10 is hz rank, (#15) is combined (or the other way around, idc) would add a lot. mkwrs i can honestly forgive as it's always been against 50hz, but if 50hz does eventually take over then i'd get sad 60hz WRs would not have a history anymore. Quote:
my god how many times do i have to say i dont want 50hz banned literally the point of what im saying over and over is that I think combined has too much emphasis, and the reality is that combined should never be considered a fully fair comparison. Hence novelty but clearly it's still worth a lot, to the community and to me personally as well, and 50hz doesn't realistically affect many people before top level, so comparisons make more sense before that level So any changes in the players page is almost impossible without hitting the 50hz players. That doesn't mean I can't still argue that I find the comparison to be competitively unfair towards 60hz. That doesn't exclude that I don't want comparisons against 50hz. I'm sick of having to explain myself over and over so this will be my last post in this thread. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by mf on 05/10/22 at 22:18:48 I don't think the difference is as big as people think. Faster MTs might be a bit easier but it does not mean they are easy. For example it takes about half a second to build an MT in 60Hz and you have about 0.1 seconds more to do it in 50Hz with a different timing, which is certainly something but it's not a gigantic difference to me. So the MT speed is slightly faster on average in 50Hz but it's definitely not on the level of maxed out. On the other technical stuff, A-tech is/feels to me less natural than in 60Hz since it takes more time to get a feedback in the game. R-Tech should theoratically be easier but it still feels pretty random. Having played both 60 and 50Hz at top level, 50Hz is not that mode that you start playing and get free PRs with as it still requires hours, sometimes sessions just to get an improvement (at least at top 5 level). My feeling with separating them by getting rid of the combined charts would be that 50Hz would either gain attraction or totally lose it, while 60Hz would stay the main way to play the game. Would top players who only play 60Hz even bother driving a 50Hz timesheet for example? For that news thing of mentionning both the overall rank and Hz rank, what would you do if someone plays both to a similar level? Should both be marked? But then that makes too many ranks. Or maybe the better one? But 17th in 60Hz is higher level than in 17th in 50Hz. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 05/10/22 at 23:33:44 @mf and community, 50Hz has the advantage definitely. I edited this a few hours later to correct some things as best I could within my understanding. I have edited this post several times now just to fix mistakes. While I am NOT sure how big an advantage each 50Hz PR individually has over 60Hz PRs on RR it's about 1second per 2mins and 54seconds IGT difference. 50Hz has the advantage! This is a very rough calculation. I don't know how accurate or inaccurate it is. Appears to be roughly correct. Shorter PRs to race are 'less' impacted by the hertz used but, any advantage based on playing 50Hz over 60Hz is an advantage and debatibally unfair because of AnyHz/Combined Hz.These are world rankings. The more I think about it, I don't know what to do with AnyHz category. I would be in favor of scrapping it entirely to please others eventhough I don't mind it myself. 50Hz only mode SHOULD always remain as a competitive database to submit to. 50Hz competitors 'should' be allowed to continue to submit to 50Hz charts. It's 'not' reasonable for people to argue, "No more 50Hz submissions." Stopping 50Hz progress is wrong! The questions are what to do with AnyHz charts and MKDD!! score calculation for All Karts Combined. I'd guess I am probably 5World Rankings higher because of 50Hz. This is to say, I'm #302 instead of maybe #307. While I don't have any maths to back this up, it would be something like that. At my level, there's not much difference between 50Hz snd 60Hz on most tracks. The very best competitors have an ENORMOUS disadvantage playing in 60Hz only. 60Hz only competitors at the very top level maybe top 20, let's say, are champions for besting 50Hz competitors at this very extremely elite level, 50Hz and 60Hz matters A LOT!!! Just because 60Hz WRs have mostly won at this point in time doesn't mean it's close to level playing field. 60Hz legends are simply more skilled/determined even at a HUGE disadvantage!!! I have no idea what any of their lives look like so cannot speak about who has the most 'spare time' to play MKDD!! competitively but it's relevant that more spare time is an advantage also that cannot be accurately measured as no one knows how much spare time anyone has to compete. In general, 50Hz is heavily advantaged at the elite level. I am NOT in the top 20, nowhere near but understand 31 of my 32 PRs are better because of 50Hz. It's rare that one of my anyHz PRs is better in 60Hz, it was a fluke. 50Hz has a huge advantage at the very top. I doubt there will be any changes made to the way the sites are run. If there were changes made, I'd recommend whichever Hz you perform better in is how your MKDD!! point score is calculated in All Karts Combined. Beating half the field nets you 0.301 points. It doesn't matter if you have the same rank in both 50Hz and 60Hz because it's based on percentage of domination and would use the hertz you did better in. Personally, I think 60Hz is the more honorable way to compete eventhough I am very guilty of continuing to play 50Hz myself. If people play 60Hz only it's a good thing. Competitors do have the right to play 50Hz as it is within the rules. Although 50Hz is a bit unfair, competitors can make suggestions for change or focus only on 60Hz rankings. The other option is to not compete if you really are that upset about it, (people in general). I find it offensive suggesting no longer accepting 50Hz submissions as there's different categories of hertz to suit your competitive needs. Plus to take away one's right to improve one's PRs in 50Hz is unreasonable!!! In general, I know you never said this. You yourself submit to 50Hz mf. The only two things I have an issue with are MKWRs website listing 50Hz records as WRs as they should be omitted and All Karts Combined using AnyHz to calculate percentage of domination for MKDD!! Whether you think the advantage is big, small or somewhere in the middle, competition should be as fair as possible. AnyHz for All Karts Combined and listing 50Hz records as WRs is unfair objectively 'not' subjectively!!! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by @ndrew on 05/11/22 at 00:37:51 Quote:
That really is some bullshit man, you act like there were no 60hz players ever able to compete with 50hz players in the old days. I literally became world champion, beating one of the best 50hz players of all time who played the game in 50hz since 2004. I find the notion that 50hz is going to come back and totally dominate the charts to be completely ridiculous. The fact that I beat out all the top 50hz shows its doable in 60hz and that the advantage isn't insurmountable, its small. All you are accomplishing is spreading division. Who give a fuck if someone plays in 50hz, let them play the game and have fun and stop obsessing over tiny details like a fuckin nerd. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Ultimarkh on 05/11/22 at 03:30:43 444352475F52591A53521A405E59435245370 wrote:
All good [smiley=beer.gif] I realize my wording wasn't crystal clear indeed. |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Stephen De Winter on 05/11/22 at 08:28:24 @Ultimarkh cool [smiley=beer.gif] I don't drink alcohol but it was really nice reading your post [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Misunderstandings happen all the time, especially with forums and add to the fact we've never spoken before, we don't know how the other person thinks or speaks. This only creates further misunderstandings plus I have Autism Spectrum Disorder born and diagnosed to add further miscommunication between myself and others but all good [smiley=thumbsup.gif] If you are Frederic Vernier, (I think you are), huge CONGRATS on your achievements on this game mate [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Wow, way to go!!!! |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Goomba on 05/11/22 at 09:53:00 I suppose I'll reply to the following to make it a bit clear 080D0D0D0D190501600 wrote:
I'm honestly fine with any solution. You bring up a good argument for people with both sheets, so maybe we should stick to main combined ranking first, then doing something like #50 Real Name (#20, #21) As for if I were to drive 50hz if it got more separate, yes I'd honestly be more interested myself in playing 50hz as to me it would mean more |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Icy on 05/12/22 at 08:26:34 m8 when is Goomba 32/32 50Hz records? |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by WAZZUPYOSHI on 05/12/22 at 17:49:12 This thread was an open and shut case months ago. No idea why this was revived not once but twice now, but I guess Goomba and co. really want to further their agenda and keep drawing new attention to this issue. ::) Business as usual in kart. 200E041205173F2D011408600 wrote:
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Xander Giordani on 05/12/22 at 18:04:29 I thought Parsi started this one Also quite hard to take you seriously when the n word is under the message |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by Parsimonian on 05/12/22 at 18:15:54 5A7D6E77731C0 wrote:
Ye I bumped it so more ppl would look at it lel |
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Title: Re: A case against 50Hz Post by no control on 05/20/22 at 07:31:31 Just my 2 cents from MK64 perspective. We had a similar problem. NTSC vs PAL debate was part of the community since day 1. Nowadays everyone are finally tired of it. Our solution was, just buy what ever system you find better and that is it. I think this is the best solution. There are 2 main differences though: 1. pal players can not switch to ntsc like they can on mkdd 2. you need to buy other systems (NTSC JAP 1.0) to be competitive in SCs anyway So we have no option to choose easily on which system to play like MKDD euro crowd and we are used to buying other systems anyway. In the lower ranks it is not that important, so the idea is to just make it as easy as possible for people to enjoy the game with what they have and not worry about anything. Same reason we don't require any vids from the lower ranked people either. As for the higher end of the rankings, to get there you need to invest quite a lot of time. If you have done that, you love the game and want to keep playing and improving, buying the other setup shouldn't be a problem for you. The complaining and arguing about this for years doesn't bring anything good. NTSC players kept saying they have an significant disadvantage which crated frustration on both sides and resulted in lower activity. Imagine coming to the site and people keep telling you - oh you play NTSC, you have an significant disadvantage. Then you just pick another game or just blame the system for every unreached goal and it is an downward spiral from there. Just for the reference, imo, you shouldn't think about this at all until you reach top 100 and should think about it seriously when you reach top 50 in MK64. |
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