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Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Double Dash >> MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
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Message started by Goomba on 05/26/21 at 10:14:38

Title: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Goomba on 05/26/21 at 10:14:38

Hello everyone,

After a bit of delay but a lot of back and forth, we've created the poll to ask the community:

Should we allow or ban:
1. Fixed Replay Cam + HUD code
2. Always Save Ghost code
3. No BGM code
4. Custom Character/Kart/Remodel or Texture modifications
5. Custom Track Texture modifications
6. Custom Staff Ghost

and an extra bonus section on video proof, which is not final but more for future indications. This last section is not required, but all the above is.

The poll has explanations including descriptions, arguments for both sides, and a video. Please read carefully.
https://forms.gle/dZLdfGW2h1f6PVDs6

Further description is at the top of the poll.

The poll will run until the 26th of June, so be sure to answer beforehand. You're allowed to edit your answers -- But you do need an MKDD Players Page Profile, which is asked for in the beginning.

For any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Logan Sacrey on 05/26/21 at 11:43:48

Looks like a very well put together poll. Thank you to everyone who helped make this. Hopefully we can come together as a community and make the necessary changes in the near future.

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by IsThatAGoodTime on 06/01/21 at 20:13:49

1. Allow
2. Ban
3. Ban
4. Ban
5. Ban
6. Ban

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by WeatherOrNot on 06/03/21 at 06:28:05

What are the possible implications of "2. Always Save Ghost code". Is there a potential for this to affect the race or a subsequent race?

Tangentially related: I'm also curious whether there is a plan to open up ranks for shortcuts now that there are a significant number (which is an awesome development imho).

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Logan Sacrey on 06/03/21 at 06:41:08

To answer your second question. I’ve heard that Alex doesn’t want to add any short cut rankings as it would be an immense amount of work. But I haven’t heard Alex's thoughts directly from him so he could have different thoughts on the matter than what I’ve been told.

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by @ndrew on 06/03/21 at 14:47:20

Bro why are you still posting in here

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Goomba on 06/03/21 at 17:15:22

4651501154270 wrote:

So what it affects is that after finishing the race, you can always save your ghost, even if you didn't beat the ghost you're currently racing. Which would mean that you wouldn't need to create a flap ghost that waits at the finish line so you can "beat it" every time in order to save your new ghost. That is the biggest gameplay difference. Which would mean you can race against a different ghost than you otherwise could've, as you wouldn't have been able to save it / would've had to use a flap ghost already which has extra time waiting before the finish line so you can easily beat it and save it.

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by OptimisticEmo on 06/03/21 at 22:26:44

the only effect it has on subsequent races is that if you finish an attempt, the ghost that you are comparing to will become the ghost of the race you just finished even if you don't save the ghost. So you would either have to change course and load the ghost you want like normally or finish another attempt and the same thing will happen again, the ghost of the race you just finished will become the ghost you race against.

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Stephen De Winter on 06/04/21 at 06:16:20

I am NOT at all knowledgeable with game or hardware modification so understand if people don't consider my opinion very strongly as I don't have knowledge.

Anyway, my opinion is that it is, NOT a good idea 2 modify at all especially in world ranking competitions. This is because there might b unknown advantage/s 4 improving a competitor's PRs whether or not they r deliberatally trying 2 gain unfair advantage/s or not.

There may b unknown or known side effects 2 the modification within the gameplay giving unfair advantage/s or disadvantage/s.

Without knowing anything, the only modification that MIGHT b logical 2 me is the improvement 2 the Replay mode 4 better proof but maybe I am contradicting myself by saying this as it could have unknown or known side effects that add advantage/s or disadvantage/s 2 the gameplay.

Personally, I'll only ever play vanilla hardware and software as I want 2 b sure my in game achievements/progress r valid/real without any doubt or contraversy.

I think it's especially important 2 have NO modification or only the Replay improvement modification at absolute most. These r world rankings after all!

I think I remember reading that a competitor used mods without meaning 2 gain advantage which was discussed in a argument which I am NOT getting into.

I don't mean 2 take away his PRs and want his PRs on the site provided the mods didn't give him advantage:) I don't mean 2 argue or create contraversy either.

I like having the top players who earn their PRs in the world rankings whether they're much better or much worse than me, if they earn their PRs I am all 4 them being accepted onto the site:)

But this isn't even about David or anyone specific. In general, I am against modification, especially in world rankings.

If the rules have been unclear which it sounds like they quite possibly have been, I am even less sure than I was b4 about what 2 do going forward.

I am less sure because if, modification didn't invalidate PRs in the past, why should it in the future as some competitor's PRs that might have modification that's believed 2 b level playing field might have already been accepted? It would b unfair 2 stop accepting future PRs with modification that r level playing field when they were accepted in the past.

Also, removing PRs which utilised modification that r believed 2 b scored in a level playing field manner from the past seems a bit unfair if there were NO rules against modification that give NO advantage playing with modification 4 trying 2 get PRs at the time the PRs were achieved. Not that anyone is arguing 4 or against this, 2 my knowledge.

Even though I disagree/may disagree with the rules about modification while Time Trialing PRs in this community, the rules MUST b obeyed so everyone is playing the same 'fair' way. If I myself or anyone else 4 that matter doesn't agree with the rules, we don't have the right 2 break them. If unhappy, don't compete in the community or request a reasonable change of rules that r practical and non problematic.

Just stating my opinions, not that anyone has agreed or disagreed with me no one specifically. I am not agreeing or challenging anyone's opinions yet. These r my beliefs about the competition and modification.

But than again, there could b unfair advantages known or unknown about these modifications that should immediately invalidate PRs IF they get discovered, (the side effects giving unfair advantage/s if there is any unfair advantage/s).

In general, modification is a bad idea in competition. Competitors should play vanilla copies of the game and hardware 2 avoid problems and contraversy.

It might b too late 2 change this unless, unfair advantage/s r found in modification. I think I remember reading that there was visibility advantages discovered with texture modification. I don't know if I read this or imagined it as I wasn't paying close attention.

2 b very honest, I am lazy and don't read these big long arguments. I miss some key points due 2 my attention span having difficulty concentrating.

But commonsense tells me, "Modification is a bad idea in world competition. Even if there's NO advantage from modification, why draw negative attention 2 yourself or contraversy about your PRs in general? It's logical 2 play without modification. Even if there's NO advantage from modification. Why create contraversy if u r NOT cheating?" In general, NOT referring 2 David or anyone else. This is my honest point of view. But perhaps I thought of David because of what I have already read.

Again, I don't know what I am talking about. Just seems logical 2 me, (my opinion).

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Logan Sacrey on 06/06/21 at 17:42:46

6E404A5C4B5971634F5A462E0 wrote:

Bro why are you still posting in here

I had the answer

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Stephen De Winter on 06/12/21 at 06:06:44

Hi Alex,

When I filled out my poll voting form today about my opinions on MKDD!! modification whether it should b allowed or not 4 the various hacks, at the end when I was giving feedback about whether or not I feel video proof should b mandatory 4 non world records, I want 2 elaborate further with what I mean.

Just now I realised my suggestion about video proof would b A LOT of work and NOT practical 4 u 2 keep watching all the videos 2 approve them all as ok or cheated as u continue 2 update frequently as it would b far too much work 4 one moderator or very limited moderators that help u, (I don't know if u single handedly run MKDD!!PP site or if a very limited amount of moderators help u out). Either way, my suggestion about video proof is probably FAR TOO MUCH work and therefore not practical.

What I now recommend/suggest is the same thing. The only difference and it's a HUGE DIFFERENCE, u and other moderators don't have 2 watch the proofs. Top players r required 2 prove their times with video, (within my suggestion). It's up 2 anyone interested 2 watch the top competitor's videos they submit of their PRs and report anything suspicious.

So moderators have time 2 update and live their lives too. If competitors and others want 2 catch cheats, they'll have a much better chance 2 expose them if top players r required 2 upload and share video files of their PRs on their profiles 4 everyone else 2 watch as they please and let viewers judge how legit the PRs r or aren't. If someone/s r unhappy with a video, they can report it 2 u.

Besides this, (moderators not needing 2 watch all video proofs and people can watch as they please,) I still think top competitors should b required 2 submit A LOT more video proof and KEEP it up on their profiles until they get new PRs 2 replace the video with.

Again, since videos were not required in the past, not sure what 2 do about top players that r inactive without much proof. I feel they should probably not b required 2 prove much as videos weren't required when they played back in the past. Perhaps no more proof should b expected from them since it wasn't expected from those same competitors in the past. This is as long as, they're still not playing anymore. If they return 2 top level competition then I feel, videos of their new PRs should b expected from them.

Changing rules complicates things but, there NEEDS 2 b MUCH STRONGER proof standards, I feel. It is not an easy situation 4 moderators 2 get right, due 2 some competitors cheating making things hard 4 everyone playing fairly.

One more thing, I think competitors SHOULD b required 2 play with the volume of the game's music and SFX present in video proof 4 top players. Competitors should either have their TVs muted or play without sound hacks. Either listening 2 the game's music and SFX or muting their TV. Sound hacks/modification is an unfair playing advantage!! I much prefer top competitors in their video proof play with the game's sound/music and SFX 2 help verify their PRs.

2 verify no sound hacks were used, if that becomes or stays a rule, (no sound hacks) in video proof, the game's music and SFX must b easily heard 4 the proof 2 b accepted as well as everything else being legit and fair too.

Thanks 4 all the HARD work u put into the site:)
Stephen

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Logan Burden on 06/12/21 at 10:56:18

Allow. Makes Proof easier.
Strong Allow. Makes proof easier. Makes proof more robust, allows for people to have no reason why they can't provide a ghost.
Weak Allow. I know a lot of people have argued for banning it, but it's all been really unconvincing. I'd defer to top players, but from what I've heard, everything at that level is muscle memory anyway.
Ban. At least for video proof. It wouldn't show up in ghost data if the ghost is legit, so It wouldn't matter there. Everything up to this point can be done with well known codes, texture and model editing need to load additional files from USB or SD card or need a modified iso/disk.
Hard Ban. Too much opportunity to make things clearer, add cues, etc. Also same issues as with characters. I might be able to get on board a very accurate HD texture pack that changes absolutely nothing and is approved by the community, but in general, I think it is a bad Idea and opening up a can of worms.
Weak Allow. It's just a Ghost,seems like fun to have another racer, but I'd again defer to top players opinions.

What I do think should happen is a better process for submitting and verifying ghosts. Sure, they aren't as good verification as a Video or live play, I think that they add credibility to times, allow for catching of certain cheating methods, are easy to get the files for if you play on wii or dolphin, and are much much easier to upload than than video for people like me who have bad internet.

In general, I'd say that any top 50 time should probably have BOTH a video and ghost, as the Ghost can then be compared with the video using an unmodified ISO in dolphin to check for discrepancy and signs of TAS.

I can't understate how much stronger claims would be if they had both at Video and ghost.

Title: Re: MKDD Modification Discussion - Final Poll
Post by Stephen De Winter on 06/12/21 at 13:17:22

While I want 2 recommend better rules 4 the communitie's future, I am realising more and more, I don't have enough knowledge and don't feel confident suggesting improvements when it is, not so clear what the improvements r. I don't have the answers or confidence 2 contribute anymore 2 this discussion. I feel like hacks in most cases 4 games in general r wrong 4 competition but, don't want 2 say anymore in case my recommendations r misguided because I don't understand something/s myself or they r too complex 4 me 2 get right.

Thanks 4 the opportunity 2 have a say in bettering the communitie's future:)