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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Wii >> Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1589813675 Message started by Arvo57 on 05/18/20 at 06:54:35 |
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Title: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arvo57 on 05/18/20 at 06:54:35 This thread doesn't concern the player's page, it's only here due to it being the only Time Trial-related forum. All of the times mentioned below are not on the Player's Page and violate the Player's Page ruleset. Read the post below before replying. OK, after some thought and anger put into this topic and realising how bad and disorganised the TT community was just over a year ago, I want to get this done. The community has been fighting over the my stuff runs ever since Hibiki and nobody is actually trying to make any decisions. I'm gonna present the cases to the best of my ability and we're going to have polls based on what is brought up in the conversation and finally be done with this absolute shit show. 1. Hibiki/Jan The most notorious one. Hibiki set a rDKM WR with a text on screen that told him "To save a regular track ghost, please disable my stuff.": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoYKwHH0zHE The way the community handled this was bad. The WR was added, removed and then re-added. As far as I remember Blaze got a lot of shit for removing this one, and it was eventually added back and we are still talking about this 2 and a half years later. I think Cole's post (http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1490279763/27#27) sums up the decision quite well, however. MKwrs did not have rules displayed anywhere on the site when the run was set, and neither did the top 10s. The only place with a solid ruleset at the time was the Player's Page's rules, which were not linked on neither MKwrs nor the MKBoards top 10s. Therefore I think the Hibiki case is as much of a moderation mistake than it is Hibiki's stupidity. The text should have raised about a thousand red flags for him, but to be honest, it was more than likely that he didn't know that he needed a ghost of the run for it to be considered legit. I can understand the frustration from the community's perspective but I'm more disappointed in the utter disorganization of the community back in that time, and largely blame this catastrophy on that. I don't think it was entirely his fault and imo, the run should be grandfathered in and we should make sure stuff like this never happens again. We have rules on both MKwrs and MKLeaderboards now, there is absolutely no excuse for something like this happening in the future. 2. Fox The second older case. Fox set a WR and the first sub 2:10 run on BCWii glitch with custom music enabled. The ghost did save and he did not have the text on screen that informed him of turning off My Stuff, due to him running a version of the track without sound triggers. Fox's post (http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1512225933/46#46) explains his reasons for this. This case is a bit different since he was 100% aware of the fact that his run would likely not be counted due to this and knew about the custom music rule. I think this does put all the blame on him, regardless of it being a mistake or not. In fact I think this case is much worse than Hibiki's, since Fox deliberately chose not to come forward with this immediately, but only posted about it after the community caught on. He didn't try to hide it or anything, but I think there is a much bigger case to remove this time than Hibiki's case. 3. Mel/Batcake A newer case. His runs is question were set on TF (http://www.chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/rkgd/E3/F3/9E12C5CB5C363103B3E7D58A8E1FB10FD4DA.html) and WGM (http://www.chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/rkgd/D9/1F/279B5C1ACD8EE61C0F2D6CBA98F9D7963731.html). This case is similar to Fox's case, since the runs were set on no sound triggers (no text at the bottom for my stuff) and the ghosts are available. I'm a bit fuzzy on the background on this, but I know for a fact that, over a year after the Hibiki case, there were still no rules displayed on MKwrs nor MKLeaderboards. I'd be more inclined to delete these runs, since he was definitely aware of the Hibiki and Fox cases and should have known better. Still, I don't understand how, after over a year after the Hibiki incident there were still no rules on MKwrs or MKL. Since I was an MKL mod at this point, I'm equally disappointed in myself for not ever thinking this was concerning. 4. KasperUS KasperUS is the only example (as far as I can remember) of a player who's records have actually been rejected due to playing on my stuff (with the text displayed at the bottom). The runs in question are his GV rock hop (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l27NI9lkBMA) and TF (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyEWH_wJCkI) "PR's". I remember this case vaguely, this is the one that started the discussion about implementing a rules tab on MKL, which now exists (although the CTGP-only rule for high-level times is still missing from there, I have asked the mod to add it as soon as possible.) Kasper was fully aware that his runs wouldn't count if he used My Stuff, even jokingly mentioning it in the descriptions. These runs should never count in my opinion. I'm sorry for sounding like an angry toddler in this post, at the end of the day I'm just frustrated at how we're still wondering what to do with these times, years later after they were set. I'd just like a good concrete solution on this and will be making four polls (one for each person) after the discussion dies down. Please point out bad logic in what I try to argue for, there are likely things that I have missed that would entirely flip my opinion on some of these. Before reading into the Hibiki case a little more I was entirely for removing it from the tops. Just to repeat myself, new times like these will not be allowed on any major leaderboards in the future. We now have rulesets that make it very clear that runs that like this are no longer accepted. Regardless on what we choose to do with these four cases, any future My Stuff runs will be rejected on the spot. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by A-a-ronBurrSir on 05/18/20 at 07:07:50 I never got the point in not counting runs with custom music. In cases like Kasper and Mel we know those runs are legit and the custom music wan't used to gain an advantage. I get that you want everything to be vanilla but there are plenty of other games that allow softmods on the games as long as they're not used to give an advantage. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Ketchup on 05/18/20 at 07:12:08 I'd allow all of them except Kasper's as he did it knowing that he could be playing to save a ghost, the others seem like legitimate accidents |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/18/20 at 07:12:09 As long as they didn’t technically break any rules for each individual site at the time the run was set then their runs must count on said site. I think that in all of these cases the subject was probably aware that they would be causing issues so perhaps there is a question of morals but, in summary, rules are rules and if they didn’t break these rules/there were no specific rules then their times must be counted. (And if they break the rules of a specific site (this one) then they must not be counted on this site alone) |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/18/20 at 07:15:22 4F6F7C61604C7B7C7C5D677C0E0 wrote:
There is no point in opening up a load of arbitrary cans of worms because some people don’t like the game music. You would be able to disguise an advantageous tool as normal custom music relatively easily. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by flanders on 05/18/20 at 07:15:47 The main one I’m going to go over is Jan’s run. Imo this run should be counted. It was likely a misunderstanding or a mistake, or just force of habit, similar to Fox’s case. I personally believe that Jan is a good enough TTer to get a WR legitimately. We could also try reaching out to him as well. We know he has YouTube, but also a (private) Twitter account at @awerueo700. His Discord is [ch12376][ch12419][ch12435]#9155. 0C2C3F22230F383F3F1E243F4D0 wrote:
You can use custom music for chain timing |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arvo57 on 05/18/20 at 07:18:09 417C6060707C4B69130 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/18/20 at 07:18:41 677470693331060 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.[/quote] Exactly, so the times count |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arvo57 on 05/18/20 at 07:21:06 4E736F6F7F7344661C0 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.[/quote] Exactly, so the times count [/quote] You could argue for blackyboi runs counting based on this though (but I get your point yeah) |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by A-a-ronBurrSir on 05/18/20 at 07:23:48 734E5252424E795B210 wrote:
In situations where the custom music is used to gain an advantage then the run wouldn't count. But innocent mods like what kasper and mel did shouldn't be considered a violation of the rules just for the music. 47656961766B6A47040 wrote:
You can also use the normal music for this. You can also turn off the game volume on your TV for this. My point is that there are 440925837094587 ways to help with chain wheelies and banning just 1 would cause problems with all of the others. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/18/20 at 07:28:03 3023273E6466510 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.[/quote] Exactly, so the times count [/quote] You could argue for blackyboi runs counting based on this though [/quote] Well we have reason to believe he cheated his runs, these cases are just based on morals/laziness rather than genuine suspicion. I think all of these players have proved themselves as capable of these times in a legitimate setting @Aaron my point is that you could be unaware that a player is using mods to their advantage |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by A-a-ronBurrSir on 05/18/20 at 07:33:20 665B4747575B6C4E340 wrote:
If you're that concerned that they're using it for an advantage then ask them to play with normal music on for 10 minutes and see if it makes a difference. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/18/20 at 07:35:12 173724393814232424053F24560 wrote:
If you're that concerned that they're using it for an advantage then ask them to play with normal music on for 10 minutes and see if it makes a difference.[/quote] Im not saying they are, and I’m certain they’re not but the point is that, in theory, you could. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arrow on 05/18/20 at 07:47:41 I believe Fox’s and Hibiki’s times should count. I don’t know about the others but I’ll just state my support of those two runs being counted. I disagree with the premise on Fox’s time because as was mentioned, he did not try to hide it, and people counted it straight away. I see the case actually no different than Hibiki’s case, not to mention we have a ghost of that run. Fox did not push to have his run count, people just did it of their own accord so everyone is really equally at blame I feel. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by James on 05/18/20 at 08:49:31 I strongly support Fox, Hibiki and Batcake’s times being allowed. Kasper said himself that he didn’t care about ghosts not being saved and joked about it, therefore I don’t think his custom music times should count. I would suggest that on mkwrs, the player’s page and MKLeaderboards, it should say in the rules that it is highly preferred that you turn mystuff off for Nintendo track tts. But if people do set times with mystuff it should be on no sound triggers so that there is a ghost for the time. If people set a large minority or more of their times with mystuff on, I think there is an incentive to deter them from using mystuff on Nintendo tts by disallowing some of those times. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Vinnie927 on 05/18/20 at 08:53:44 This is probably the first time I saw so much support for Hibiki's run. To me the answer is very clear: Hibiki used game modifications, so their run shouldn't count. I don't really get the logic that it should be counted because he didn't know. Aside from the text at the bottom of the screen, we already have a precedent for a run set which was invalidated through later rule changes with Brett's pause buffered WRs. At the time, pause buffering was not explicitly banned (so Brett didn't violate a single rule), but because the community decided it should be, his runs are (rightfully) not counted. I know it's not a 1:1 comparison, but the general concept that someone set a run which would not count today but technically did at the time is similar, and adding how Hibiki had some sort of method of reasonably being aware of the rules, to me that really feels like a clear reason to not count their time. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by James on 05/18/20 at 08:55:26 @Vinnie927 Brett did want his pause buffering runs banned though, I assume hibiki would want his DKM time to count |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Vinnie927 on 05/18/20 at 09:02:55 I'm not necessarily sure that what a player wants done with their times is as important as creating a consistent ruling for top 10s. As far as I am aware, this would be one of a very small amount of runs on the Top 10s to have had the My Stuff folder on, which is no longer allowed. I'm not really sure why any of these times should be grandfathered in, to me it will always feel like those leaderboards are tainted because there is no actual difference between a run set today with My Stuff on and a run set in 2017 aside from the amount of knowledge regarding the rules. As unfortunate as it might be to have these runs discounted, I think having all runs abide by the same ruleset is more important. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Firestone on 05/18/20 at 09:19:40 I want to provide more context as to how this situation arose. Basically, we all screwed up here. The PP was once the center of MKW time trials, since Nintendo's leaderboards were so borked. Because of the PP's influence, everyone knew and followed this site's ruleset, including prohibiting custom music/SZS files. But starting in 2015, this site started losing its grip on the wider MKW community. MKBoards began adding times by players who "proved themselves legit" after being banned from the PP for submitting illegitimate times.* Now, CTGP's ghost database essentially obsoletes the PP, since it automatically updates its leaderboards without needing players to venture to an external source. I think a lot of TT vets didn't realize at the time how consequential it was that the TT community was straying away from the PP. In the past, TT leaderboards on other sites simply followed the PP's rules and only added times the PP "declared" legit, but that wasn't the case from 2015-2019. Now MKLeaderboards and MKWRS have essentially adopted the PP's ruleset on custom music, which is a good thing. I think all four players mentioned above should have those times counted on MKLeaderboard, so long as they were done on CTGP with either custom music or no music, or with tracks replaced with their "no sound triggers" version. If you do that, you must be mentioned that the runs were only grandfathered in despite the current ruleset, not that custom music/no sound triggers is now allowed for TT leaderboards. Edit: I know there's a counter-argument that any run made with game modifications should not be counted, and that every player should be instinctively aware of that fact. I used to believe that too, but now I don't think it's that obvious. Many Super Mario 64 single-star runs are done using codes/modded roms which can display timers, among other things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjcD0qzkgcw *As a sidenote, I think the PP over-extended its reach on banning players. Even though the runs Mel/Batcake submitted to the PP in 2014 were suspicious, he was banned for completely unrelated live replay runs never meant for leaderboards. If he isn't already, he should be allowed back on this site. I think Barney was a similar case but I don't remember anymore |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by James on 05/18/20 at 09:33:45 I completely agree on that sidenote firestone |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by DankyDog on 05/18/20 at 10:57:57 Why the hell do people want Hibiki’s run to count if he violates the rules? That makes no sense to me. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/18/20 at 11:27:17 45606F6A78456E66010 wrote:
There were no such rules when he set that run, except for here on the pp which is a separate entity to the other sites |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Cole on 05/18/20 at 11:39:41 If the community decides to remove Hibiki's and Fox's times, I could add another section under "Additional Times" called something like "Modded Track Times", and move those 2 times there. That way there is still a record of the times on the WR site. This could also be used for future times that beat WRs but accidentally/mistakenly use texture/music mods (although hopefully it doesn't happen again). |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arvo57 on 05/18/20 at 12:50:31 1935363F1D3336383F282E5A0 wrote:
I don't think we should leave them in a weird state of half-counting and leave the door open for future runs on my stuff. Now that we have the rules in place we should have no problem rejecting runs that break them. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Mango Man on 05/18/20 at 14:57:10 I don’t get banning custom music. I could just as well plug in headphones and listen to my custom music that way lol. Hell, I know people that turn on metronomes for timing wheelie chains. Should we ban those too? The only real argument I’ve seen for it’s banning is it’s not vanilla. But the rules effectiveness is so minuscule that I don’t see a point in it even existing. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by AM on 05/19/20 at 00:43:56 It's hard to correct wrongs after the fact, but as I've learned from Ruso's times being removed from MKWRS, it's never too late to do so. In my opinion: keep Fox's time, maybe keep Hibiki's time, remove all others. Reasoning: Fox's time is the earliest case out of these 4, he has the most credibility out of all of these players (with WRs going back as far as 2013), and he's given a good enough reason for his actions. The game modification isn't intentionally advantageous either. While Fox accepts the repercussions of using game mods in TTs, I think that if this were to be the only exception ever made, it'd be a good one. Hibiki's WR was set nearly a year later and does include the My Stuff warning, which makes his case less compelling for me. Even if he hadn't known the PP's ruleset, he still had a warning right in front of him. On top of that, there is obviously no ghost for the run, which I personally see as a necessary piece of credibility for a WR in this day and age. However, Hibiki does have legitimate 2:05 DKM ghosts, and has other times on MKLB with ghost proof as well. He's clearly a capable player just like Fox, but we can't be sure about his reasons for using custom music in his WR, especially with the warning on the bottom of the screen. I say, if the community trusts the run enough, keep it. But from a ruleset standpoint, this run should be retroactively removed. Mel and Kasper are both online players and their runs were set long after both of these cases. I don't doubt that they were aware of the custom music ban, and TT'd with it anyway because they didn't care. Nothing is stopping them from redoing those runs, as they are both extremely capable and credible players. But even if no "official" ruleset was determined at that point in time, I think the message would have been clear enough for everyone. For Cole's post (http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1512225933/34#34) here, I support 1.0 and 1.1 - I strongly think 2.0 only complicates things. There is room for error with different updaters having different opinions on modded WRs. On top of that, the additional "strike" players would incur can just be easily avoided by enforcing the "no mods, ever" rule from the get go. I get the idea - it's nice to make exceptions for fluke runs by credible players because the run is a WR after all. But the precedent has long been established and as such I see no excuse for players to have this lifeline. To address Firestone's point about modded ROMs in SM64: I think it's a good point but it always comes back to consensus. It's what the community agrees on that should be the norm, for better or worse. You could argue CTGP isn't 100% equivalent to the way MKW was played in 2008, but the community has accepted it as the new norm because it's a large improvement over vanilla MKW with features that enhance the experience without significantly changing the game. Rulesets should always be changed and updated to what the community agrees on, but in the particular case of custom textures and music, the consensus has been established for so long that I personally wouldn't accept any modded WRs from this point on. To close out my post, the PP is no longer (or shouldn't be) the central authority for TTs. I hope that authority shifts to MKWRS & MKLB, because it's people like Arvo who make most of the good decisions nowadays. They care about the game & community, and understand all the fundamental issues from every point of view. Having open discussions like this just shows how fair and unbiased these people are - they want you to contribute to the final decision. Revising past issues is a controversial but needed task, and these new gen players always come through with some good points to settle the problem. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by DankyDog on 05/19/20 at 02:22:50 All of the runs shouldn’t count because they violate the rules. I’m tired of people saying that they count when they clearly don’t. I think it’s important to have a consistent ruleset. I agree with Vinnie because it would be stupid to count them. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by blahpy on 05/19/20 at 02:35:19 3B282C356F6D5A0 wrote:
I don't think we should leave them in a weird state of half-counting and leave the door open for future runs on my stuff. Now that we have the rules in place we should have no problem rejecting runs that break them.[/quote] I agree. It's not hard to not edit the game files. No need to specify what edits are and aren't allowed. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by KingAlex on 05/19/20 at 06:06:46 I'd remove all the times. For those questioning the custom music rule, again, this must be the thousandth time I've said this (now I know how streamers like Sword/NMeade feel having to answer the same damn basic questions over and over, lol), but changing/removing the music severely reduces nerves/allows for unfair advantages. No music = no nerves, free chains, etc. Changed, enjoyable music = a way more relaxing TT, especially on lap 3. Whether or not a player used custom music to "gain an advantage", there's no way to accurately track that or know for sure. Total honour system which'd result in a shitshow. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by ALAKTORN on 05/19/20 at 09:23:08 2536322B7173440 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.[/quote] That’s bullshit, we had rules in place way before then, it doesn’t take officially writing them down on every possible page for rules to exist. lol This community is a laughing stock. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by RosscoXz on 05/19/20 at 13:08:17 4E434E445B405D410F0 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.[/quote] That’s bullshit, we had rules in place way before then, it doesn’t take officially writing them down on every possible page for rules to exist. lol This community is a laughing stock.[/quote] -The laughing stock of said community The pp is far from the most popular site in this community, it’s perfectly plausible that a lot of people that play the game at a high level have never set foot on this website, especially the modern jap community. Not making excuses for him, but he simply cannot be penalised for rules that weren’t on the main two sites. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arvo57 on 05/19/20 at 13:11:03 102D3131212D1A38420 wrote:
The top 10's / MKWrs technically had no rulesets before early 2019, as there were no rules listed on the pages before then.[/quote] That’s bullshit, we had rules in place way before then, it doesn’t take officially writing them down on every possible page for rules to exist. lol This community is a laughing stock.[/quote] -The laughing stock of said community The pp is far from the most popular site in this community, it’s perfectly plausible that a lot of people that play the game at a high level have never set foot on this website. [/quote] This^ A large part of people who joined after WFC have no clue what the Player's Page is. Also, the polls have now been made, please vote there so we can finally be done with this. Polls: http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1589922074 http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1589922015 http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1589921949 http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1589921909 |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Mango Man on 05/19/20 at 14:48:25 090409031C071A06480 wrote:
I think you failed to read the big ass title that Arvo started with |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Sorozone on 05/20/20 at 13:28:50 None of these should count. IMO. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Batman5112 on 05/21/20 at 22:22:11 KingAlex said it best imo. All are to be removed. |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Arvo57 on 05/31/20 at 10:36:14 Polls are now closed, results are: Jan - No Fox - No Mel - No Kasper - No Removing and replacing all times on MKL now, hoping mkwrs follows soon. New WR's that need to be added: Liam's DKM 2:05.754 http://www.chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/rkgd/C6/63/0172E2C8A414C079DE4DC8C9F7EF258B755D.html Blaze's 2:09.962 BCWii glitch http://www.chadsoft.co.uk/time-trials/rkgd/32/24/1303DB223BD997876E009308355318F9B26B.html |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Kasper on 06/03/20 at 00:03:58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrrMJqjgsIM |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by Mango Man on 06/03/20 at 00:15:03 13392B283D2A580 wrote:
Thank you for the well articulated and intelligent response! ;D |
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Title: Re: Hibiki, Fox, Mel, KasperUS Post by flanders on 06/03/20 at 03:11:48 163C2E2D382F5D0 wrote:
Fenner level response [smiley=roll.gif] |
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