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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Wii >> Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1587941005 Message started by Epix on 04/26/20 at 14:43:25 |
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Title: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Epix on 04/26/20 at 14:43:25 Recently there has been an emergence of times for the Mushroom Gorge Wallride. Two times, in particular, Daseia's 1:41.009 and my 1:41.213 are currently under the glitch category. These times obviously don't fit with the glitch category since the record there is under 30 seconds. What I am asking for is a category like DK's Jungle Parkway and Grumble Volcano. At this point, there is no arguing if wallride should be in the no-glitch category but I do want some sort of recognition for this variation of the gap jump. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 04/26/20 at 15:51:40 Personally, I think wallride should join rDKJP spiral skip and rGV rockhop as an alternative category, but this is the players page. No alternate categories around here [smiley=uzi.gif] 27222D283630430 wrote:
The issue with adding alternative rankings to the PP is that you're adding an entirely new category of 32 tracks (64 categories!) just for a different play style on 3 different tracks. That being said, if we did add alternative rankings I would then suggest just nuking the whole non-sc ranking and just changing combined so that it has all 32 tracks + 15 non-sc + 3 alternative. Although I dont think this is a really good idea hence my opinion that alt should stay off the pp[/quote] |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Lemon on 04/26/20 at 16:31:38 I think that we should have non-sc and wallride be one category. They're virtually the same thing. I don't see why they shouldn't be on two separate leaderboards. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Arvo57 on 04/26/20 at 16:33:42 ye would be cool to have them on MKL if there's more activity |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 04/26/20 at 16:54:42 6E474F4D4C220 wrote:
Because you're rewriting 12 years of MKWii history and cheating 25ish players out of their hard earned world records. 6E474F4D4C220 wrote:
rDKJP sprial skip literally just cuts off a single turn. MG wallride requires you to take a whole different route. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Bossy on 04/26/20 at 23:26:29 7277787D6365160 wrote:
Because you're rewriting 12 years of MKWii history and cheating 25ish players out of their hard earned world records. 6E474F4D4C220 wrote:
rDKJP sprial skip literally just cuts off a single turn. MG wallride requires you to take a whole different route.[/quote] Im like 95% sure that you can do the wallride from the same path, its just harder to do and you need a different setup for it, and also the MG wallride also just cuts off a turn a bit more (the normal gap jump), and those who have lost their WRs in this theoretical category would get their WR with the wallride put into the new category. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 04/27/20 at 02:33:19 1F322E2E245D0 wrote:
Im like 95% sure thats slower. 1F322E2E245D0 wrote:
I meant that all the players that have had non-sc world records would lose them as a result or allowing wallride as people have been doing wallride since the start of time. Now im sure some people will still have records, but im also sure that people will have lost their records as a result. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by RosscoXz on 04/27/20 at 04:56:49 You can and it is faster to do the sc from the right path but that’s not really relevant anyway |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by KingAlex on 04/27/20 at 07:56:09 I think most would agree that another pseudo-category (like spiral skip/rock hop) would be fine. The problem is obviously CTGP. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it currently not possible to make an accurate wallride-only category on the CTGP given Nintendo's checkpoints/how the wallride mechanics flag? Runs that don't wallride but trigger the same mechanic via a mushroom would incorrectly be placed in the wallride category, should that mechanic be the trigger point. How would you propose two CTGP categories be accurately set up for wallride/no wallride? |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 04/27/20 at 09:29:34 6C4148557E2D0 wrote:
Do you really need 2 different CTGP categories though? Why not just have a leaderboard for it on MKLeaderboards or something? |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by KingAlex on 04/27/20 at 10:07:16 No, but staying consistent with the other alternate categories by having one makes sense. Plus, the current MG no glitch category as is on the database causes confusion, doesn't differentiate between who used wallride/who didn't, and doesn't recognize actual no shortcut runs (Luke) as new WRs. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Epix on 04/27/20 at 21:20:07 One other question I have is the difference between the Wario's Goldmine wallbounce after the turnskip and the mushroom gorge wall ride. Assuming you only hit the wall once on mushroom gorge there is no difference between the two except the wall ride being a more extreme example of the property in play than wgm. Take this clip for example: https://clips.twitch.tv/HardGentleClipsdadTBTacoLeft In this clip, daseia only hits the wall one time and redirects his moment in a new direction. This same property can be viewed here in this clip on wario's goldmine: https://youtu.be/flbWpr0kbSo?t=30 In this clip, Vincent uses the wall to shift his moment from a downward angle to a more forward angle making it faster. In both clips, both players use the wall to change the direction of their momentum. Now why is one in the no glitch category and the other recognized only in the glitch category? |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by WL95★Jaxon on 04/27/20 at 22:31:48 I’m sorry but you did not just compare the WGM wallbounce to the MG rock sc. The rWS ramp would he a much more valid comparison and that is clearly no glitch no shortcut worthy |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Olifré on 04/28/20 at 00:57:15 4B7E67760E0 wrote:
I understand where you're coming from. :) Though, those two strats are to it's core pretty different. You can view the wall bounce on WGM the same way like the rock trick on KC or the low trick on rWS. We hit a wall to make our trick go lower and/or get faster forward momentum. The MG wall ride is maybe kinda sort of like that. You hit a wall, sure, but it's not like it's used to go lower or get forward momentum. It's more used to extend your trick duration to clear the gap with the added benefit to get a boost when you land back on the road. However, the wall ride is not treated the same as the other wall hitting strats. This is because the way to perform this strat is to ride the wall the same way we use to perform the ultra sc. :-/ Whether you agree with that or not, that has been thoroughly discussed in the previous thread. But the community has decided to make a separate category for any wall ride strats requiring the rock walls. Sadly this category hasn't been implemented yet in CTGP-R. [smiley=cry.gif] So until then we'll have to handle wall ride times manually. As for the PP, we don't have alternative categories, so wall ride times don't count here, unless submitted as a glitch time. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 04/28/20 at 15:20:32 416C657853000 wrote:
That's true, but isn't that what MKLeaderboards is for? I mean it would be nice if chadsoft could differentiate between them but at the end of the day, its main goal is not to be a leaderboard but a ghost database. On a slightly different note, if Jazzy just decided to add MG wallride as an alt category on MKL (which he could do seeing as its his site) I think the majority of the community would magically consider wallride an alternate category ;D |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by A-a-ronBurrSir on 04/29/20 at 11:35:07 This sounds like a reasonable compromise between allowing it all together and banning it. Bean said he would also be able to separate the traditional runs with the wall ride runs iirc |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Bynt on 05/03/20 at 20:45:34 466B627F54070 wrote:
Bean made it so his system detects wall riding from the last mushroom to the finish line |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by KingAlex on 05/04/20 at 06:39:52 Cool. I don't see any issues then. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Epix on 05/13/20 at 11:41:48 Apparently some people still think that this shortcut shouldn't be recognized at all. Here is what I have to say: Why are we comparing this to the glitch which involves a checkpoint glitch? Despite both using the wall, they should not be compared since one skips checkpoints and the other doesn't. Simple as that. Since the people making the decisions are so anal-retentive about arbitrary rules, I am forced to ask for an alternate category. This shortcut recently being optimized for RTA is the optimization of the track. If you want to go into further detail about other tracks that utilize unintended mechanics, lets do it. Let's take a quick look at DKS. For example, the jimmy cut, (optimized double cut), you lean down and hop off of a slope. You are shifting your momentum to another direction by using this slope. This shortcut shares the same mechanics as when you lean down and hop on a track like DKM and get shot backward. This is obviously abusing the mechanics of a slope. Of course, this is still considered no glitch and is done in the normal category. Once this new method was discovered, all of the optimization with the old way of doing the double cut was lost. Now lets compare this situation to Mushroom Gorge: Mushroom Gorge: New, faster method of doing a shortcut?: Yes Unintended Mechanic: Yes Previously established method of doing the shortcut? Yes Accepted by the community?: No DK Summit: New, faster method of doing a shortcut?: Yes Unintended Mechanic: Yes Previously established method of doing the shortcut?: Yes Accepted by the community?: Yes Do you see the hypocrisy here? Making arbitrary and subjective rules and putting something into a category that it doesn't belong in is simply stupid. Anyways, here are more counter examples that prove my argument further: -Maple Treeway turnskip being allowed in the no-glitch no-shortcut category -Shy Guy Beach being optimized from a Magikruiser track to a Spear track making all magi times obsolete -The ramp by the chain chomp being optimized by using unintended ramp mechanics. These runs using the ramp are still allowed in the no glitch, no shortcut category. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by flanders on 05/13/20 at 11:53:44 487D64750D0 wrote:
Wait, you’re saying that using the spear on SGB wasn’t an intended mechanic? |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Epix on 05/13/20 at 12:17:01 I am making a counterpoint to the argument that the wallride makes all of the previous normal gap jump times obsolete |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Arvo57 on 05/13/20 at 12:32:46 093C25344C0 wrote:
While I definitely don't disagree with making it an alt category (in fact there has been some discussion in the MKL staff chat to add it), I don't think charts creates a good case for the category. First of all it isn't new by any means, if you're gonna argue with a decision made by the community you're gonna need a time machine at this point. We can keep drawing lines at game mechanics as much as we want (I wouldn't really say the Jimmy cut abuses game mechanics for example, that's just how slopes work in MKW) but I don't think that's productive and will just lead to a year long argument about the way pixels are travelling on the screen. With the knowledge we have right now I do think that we'd allow wallride if it was discovered today but I can't see how it's justifiable to backroll a nearly 10 year old rule because we learn more about the inner workings of the game. The WR would likely already be at a mid-low 1:40, if the rules were different. Technically all no-sc related rules are arbitrary, and while I wish that people had decided differently years ago, I think we don't really have a choice at this point. Allowing this to take over as the new no-sc category would tarnish the entire no-sc progression of the track over the past 10 years. It's a very different case from rSGB spear and DKSC jimmy since MG has been known to be faster for a long time but not well studied thanks to no-sc categories having barely any competition back when the strat was banned. Alt category, similar to GV rock is probably the best decision here in my opinion (even though people will disagree since GV rock and DKJP spiral have been treated as a legitimate category in the past), even though I think it will lead to CM shortcut and other similar things receiving the same treatment once people get used to the idea. I'm happy with the thought of it being an alt category on the Alternative top 10s too and I think the decision right now should be between those 2 things - Official or Unofficial alt category. Basically I think the decision made back then is very bad and I wish the community had allowed wallride, but changing the rules after the game has progressed this much wouldn't do much good. Just my two cents, at the end of the day it's a collective decision (that has already been voted on once). |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 05/13/20 at 12:50:47 I’m not really sure what the point of this discussion is. Most people would be fine with a wallride category. Just not on the players page because we don’t do alt categories. Bring it up with MKL or something. Literally the only reason people don’t consider it a legit category is because it’s not listed on any leaderboards. If Jazzy or Bean added wallride to MKL or Chadsoft everyone would be considering it a legit category lol. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by flanders on 05/13/20 at 13:04:24 Also, I think it’s important to note that doing MG wallride risks missing a lap count. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Arvo57 on 05/13/20 at 13:10:18 We don't really have forums on MKL, the only place we can talk there is a discord server and if we made decisions over there they would be largely decided by what people are on at that time. 6366696C7274070 wrote:
This is not necessarily true since CM shortcut has been a category on CTGP for years and it has little to no recognition what so ever. I proposed adding it to the Alternative top 10s sheet but people seemed very much against that so I feel that a CTGP category doesn't really add much to the legitimacy of an alt category in the eyes of the community. But I do think some decision should be made about this soon, MKL alt category like GV rock and DKJP spiral, or Alt top 10 sheet category such as MT no turnskip, MC rampless, DKS old cut or BC3 old cut. I'd be down to create a poll on this so we can finally stop fighting about this. Any decision we make about this will certainly piss off a lot of people since everyone feels so strongly about one way or another. I would just love to get somewhat on a consensus on this so we can finally stop this shit, it's been going on for far too long at this point. |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Mango Man on 05/13/20 at 13:12:44 3526223B6163540 wrote:
This is not necessarily true since CM shortcut has been a category on CTGP for years and it has little to no recognition what so ever. I proposed adding it to the Alternative top 10s sheet but people seemed very much against that so I feel that a CTGP category doesn't really add much to the legitimacy of an alt category in the eyes of the community.[/quote] The difference with CM and MG though is that like the other alternative categories, MG wallride is a previously used glitch that ended up being replaced with a new faster strategy. CM has no history with the shortcut category at all. Its just there to stop the leaderboards being screwed up. 283B3F267C7E490 wrote:
Why not just hold a poll in a locked channel and bring out the big ol @everyone |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by Epix on 05/13/20 at 13:13:28 Maple Treeway turn skip also risks a turn skip. You need to do both cuts extremely wrong to get the no lap count |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by thunder 1721 on 05/13/20 at 13:24:13 64464A4255484964270 wrote:
it doesn't unless u do something terribly wrong (which wouldn't save any time with) |
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Title: Re: Alternate Mushroom Gorge Shortcut Category Post by WL95★Jaxon on 05/13/20 at 15:15:01 3B282C356F6D5A0 wrote:
I miss MKBoards :( I know I no longer play so my opinion doesn’t hold as much weight but I agree with everything Arvo has said on the matter. |
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