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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Mario Kart 7 >> [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1577701569 Message started by BMence on 12/30/19 at 02:26:09 |
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Title: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by BMence on 12/30/19 at 02:26:09 Hello :D . This topic should probably have been created earlier but better late than never. As it has been the case to decide if rMT turncut and rBC1 lava cut should be considered as glitches or not, I think it would be great if EVERY decision was made by the community. Everyone can expose the arguments on a thread made for each decision. Then, someone sums up everything and a poll is made. Everyone would have 1 vote. Votes should remain hidden until the end of the poll and some other rule should be set up so fake accounts can't be created for the votes. Those things already exist for Pokemon, for example (it's how Smogon University works when a decision has to be made, and hell there are 10 times more active players in the site). What do you think about that? You can discuss about it in that thread. There are not a lot of decision to be made. But recently, we have that "legitimacy" question. I think it shouldn't be decided by 3 people chatting with each other in private. Everyone has the right to know why those rules are being set, and everyone should have the right to be part of this decision. So I'll start with that. What should be the rules so a time is accepted? May it be a WR, top 10, or even any PP time. A post has been made recently by Skyfish (but he told he just translated the rules but didn't participate in the decisions). I don't know who even set those rules as there is NO public trace of it. Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/A_alanche/status/1211529545876156417 My opinion: - WRs and top 10 should have the same rules for EVERY time of EVERY player to be accepted. It's not because someone is very good that he shouldn't provide proof for a good PR he just set. Yacine or Diogo have been examples. - The rules should be necessary and sufficient. As a WR holder told about that tweet, "that's causing so much unnecessary effort without fixing the existing legitimacy problems". ----> we should first discuss about all the hacks knowledges we have at the moment in order to find the best way to prove your times for now. So, I invite everyone to give an opinion about what should be made: should "original music proof" be given, or do you think it's uneccesary to check if original music or custom music was used? If you have enough knowledges, tell for everyone what's enough to check if speedhack was used. Texture hack (for example, drawing arrows to help you with lines)? Custom textures (vehicle) hacks? Etc. Do you think players should play without SD card (you're the right to think that but I don't think it's good because unmaterialized versions + I personnaly won't like to withdraw my SD card off my new 3DS XL each time I'm tting). It's better to create a topic so everyone can see the posts at any time whereas it's not the case on a discord channel. I invite Japanese players (who represent the majority of active players) to take part in that decision (they can at least vote and the summary post would be translated in Japanese). Moreover, there is more visibility there than on a YouTube page or things like that. If you have any idea or reaction, please write ^^. What should be autorised only to you? I bet most of you would tell "vanilla MK7". But what about playing regular tracks on CTGP-7? What about custom music? Do you think it could give an advantage, or should we not lose time checking for it? Maybe you even want custom vehicles/wheels (same stats) to be accepted (it's not my opinion, but you can tell yours). When you know what should be accepted and what shouldn't, how to check for sure and with as less requirements as possible? If someone doesn't follow the stated rules for whatever reason (for example, 3DS dies before he could find charger,...), could there be any backup (like, many requirements that would nnot be needed otherwise, but so player with good intentions could still prove his legitimacy if he got bad luck or if he wasn't careful enough when he filmed)? What about accepting a previous WR with no proof, if the same person beats his WR? As there are more in 100 heads than in 5, I let you write there. probably the thought of some knowledgables hackers (modders, Fishguy) would be welcomed yo clarify things people wonder. EDIT: Don't forget, rules will be followed better if people know why they are set (and maybe even better if they took part in the decision). People have to know the rules, but they also have the right to know why they have to follow these rules (and no, the community isn't too dumb to understand or try understanding that). The community should also have more powers in the decision making as it's the community who feeds the top 10/WR rankings. |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by paradox. on 12/30/19 at 04:12:08 Hey everyone, I'm sorry for not addressing this myself, but some people such as Jacob, Frederiek, Kleenex, the top 10 updaters and myself have been discussing some new rules, due to the inconsistencies revolving around the rules that exist on the world records. For reference, the following times do not follow the rules stated on the wr site since their establishment: •rLR: Sun 1:42.836, Sun 1:42.825, Sun 1:42.753 (all no game audio) •rDC: Thomas 1:26.324 (no game replay) •DKJ G: Momi 1:52.201 (no game audio) •rBC1: Catfish 1:10.716 (no game replay) •rKC: Roa 2:06.580 (no game audio) •rMC2: Yacine 1:07.932 (no game audio) •rKC G: Shino 1:55.924 (no game audio), Shino 1:55.866 (no video), Shino 1:55.834 (no video) •rCM: 8w 1:55.874 (no game replay), 8w 1:55.785 (no game audio) •rDC G: Shino 1:10.198 (dead link to no bgm video), Thomas 1:10.035 (the now dead video link was not a game replay), Thomas 54.877 (no game replay), •Yacine 52.703 (no game audio), Dark 51.630 (no game audio), Thomas 50.791 (no game replay) •rAF G: Ryan 1:53.921 (video, no audio), Toad 1:46.772 (no video), Lever 1:44.357* (dead video link), Nova 1:44.321 (no game audio) I think most people would agree that it would be a hassle to somehow get all these times to fulfill the standard of proof stated on the world record page and would subsequently result in most if not all of these times being removed. The original intent was that if the rules on the wr page were followed, there would be no further complications. I dont want to sound like im blaming anyone, but Will added many of those times, presumably for the sake of accuracy. But I challenge the community with this question: How can you have accuracy without proof and legitimacy first? About the rules i was discussing with the people i mentioned and wanted to enforce: - All world records/ top 10s require a video, either live or of the normal game replay after setting a run and MUST include game audio - The player must also provide either 1.a picture of the splits with both the top and bottom screen of the 3ds itself or 2. the video should contain both screens or the ds itself (not just the screen) at some point in the video to show that you are playing on a normal 3ds/2ds. (This is to prevent the use of an emulator) Failure to follow these rules will result in the time not being added to any of the charts. NO EXCEPTIONS. This means that live replay or protocol are not sufficient enough alone to proof a time. I was initially apprehensive about this when i discussed it with jacob. I asked him what should we do if a player sets a time, doesnt record, but is actually legit? His response: "Because the protocol doesnt prove or disprove use of custom modifications, it isnt enough to do the protocol to satisfy the rules" (This means that sharing ghosts or live replay is insufficient too) The idea is to enforce stricter rules across the board. I wanted it to be clear to all the updaters to not make any exceptions when accepting proof for a time. All top 10s should follow the same set of rules, that is why i discussed it with all the updaters so there would be a consensus. If we enforce strict rules and decline times that do not meet this standard of proof (something that clearly hasnt been taken seriously until now for whatever reason), then people will be deterred from going against the rules. By making a public announcement, informing the japanese community as best as possible (I asked skyfish to translate) and having the ruleset stated at the top of every top 10 chart there should be no confusion as to what is and isnt proof. (for example apollo playing against his ghost, not fulfilling the protocol) Sorry for any confusion this has caused. I didn't tell Jyo to tweet that out yet, I was waiting to get in contact with Cole to make some edits to the rules on the world record site, as well as have an announcement in the tt server. I figure since Bmence posted something about this anyone should be welcome to share their opinions, however i dont see much changing towards what i stated as the ideal ruleset as of right now. |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by SilverMK on 12/30/19 at 07:34:59 In my opinion it is completely ridiculous to remove PAST WRs based on FUTURE decisions So if new rules go into play they should not be retrograde Let me also be hypocritical for a second At the same time, I still think that WRs with no videos at all shouldnt be put on the WR site, that extending to only these pending WRs and not WRs with no video from a year ago or whatever The discussion has been too vocal for too long for a non video WR to be accepted at this point As for very recent pending times, I think the rule change wasnt vocalized enough, I barely knew it even happened and I think expecting players to follow them immediately isnt fair, there should be a grace period We need to spread the word more before we crack down on times with "insufficient" proof Here are my opinions on this entire topic Original game audio needed Custom music allowed No custom textures of any kind (track, kart, character, etc) Speedometer allowed, in my opinion this is actually helpful for proof Original game replay needed (this means picture proof alone isnt sufficient) Top and bottom screen Protocol only needed if you submit a suspicious time (what counts as suspicious?) Should my opinion be on this thread or a separate one |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by BMence on 12/30/19 at 08:33:57 Thanks for participating both :D. I'll let people give their opinions there I gueds @SilverMK ^^. Maybe there should be polls for harder decisions, once every argument for anda against have bee written :p. As for me, I think I agree with you for everything +/- . But in order people who seem trustworthy don't go through the net, maybe something can be done (like, I think at least wrs should ALL have theto highest proof standard). Also, note that the protocol isn't sufficient (I'll tell why later if someone more knowledgable doesn't show up). Protocol itself has weaknesses (for example, it should show there is no SD card or Luma game patching mode is disabled + rosalina hacks disabled) |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by Frederiek on 12/30/19 at 10:59:06 52487A777A767E75787E521B0 wrote:
Hey Mence :-* A poll: I’m not a big fan of deciding rules with a poll. You always have voters who don’t read all the arguments, or players who want to troll. A topic like this is better. Where the best arguments will win the discussion. Custom music: You can benefit from custom music, just use your imagination. I don’t think anyone used custom music to gain an advantage already. But I can assure you that from the moment you say out loud custom music is allowed, players will find a way to exploit this rule. And the use of original sound is not hard to prove. Just turn on the volume from your 3DS for recording. Do you want to edit some music in your WR video? Fine, but link the video with original sound in your description. Coin sounds are also a reason why you need original audio in your video. To verify if you did not start with more than 0 coins. Game replay is necessary: The game replay (or recording the run live) is the only way to prove no custom modifications were used. So record it! If anyone knows how you still can prove this afterwards, I would be happy to hear about it. Because it is really unfortunate if you weren’t able to record for whatever reason. Everyone who has just set a new PR should take a picture first (top and bottom screen). And then prepare to record the game replay. A WR with insufficient proof can still be added when the player beats it: I can agree with that. Time trial on ctgp7: I was divided if we should allow this. But all players who know much more about ctgp-7 than me, tell me it should be allowed. Playing without SD card: I don’t like to enforce this, seems annoying and unnecessary, and my MK7 is preinstalled. Emulators: I understand why we should adapt the rules to exclude the use of emulators. Allowing speedometer: I don’t really have an opinion. Protocol: We have changes planned for the protocol. The part where you start up your 3DS. I believe there were still things that had to be tested before making these changes. Providing a protocol video should be required in case of suspicions. Silver asks what is suspicious. Suspicious, to me, is when there are players who have doubts. Strict rules: Would be best. For all players, trusted or not. And definitely for world records. I agree with the rules that Paradox stated. |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by BennyMK7 on 12/30/19 at 20:17:58 Here are my opinions on how the wr/top 10's proof protocol should be revised: I think a poll is a decent idea, but should be supervised in order to prevent trolling or possible dishonesty in the single vote per participant aspect. A poll would allow the entire community to have their opinion represented. The only modifications allowed during a wr/top 10 recording or run should be the speedometer display and custom music if included. The speedometer like Paradox said helps to additionally prove that speed modifications weren't used. The custom music is ok in my opinion. Players who have custom firmware should either install and/or play on CTGP-7, however the vanilla MK7 game is also fine. This is because the recent updates have made it very difficult to fake runs due to the way the results are shown in blue print to prove that the speed wasn't manipulated and that the run was in the legitimate speed. I feel that the recordings of new wrs/top 10's should be in first person replay mode on a separate video as the proof protocol video, and if necessary they could make a main video with the live replay of the run. The player should in some form link the protocol video to some trusted source e.g. the MB MK7 forums or to Youtube. Pending times should have some kind of video or picture proof to eliminate the insufficient evidence factor. Players shouldn't have to play without an SD card. They should be able to play without having to remove it every time they TT, or they might even store their game and data on it that could get damaged from constant removal. Stricter enforcement of these protocols should be taken more seriously and it would in the long run be more effective, however old wr runs or current ones shouldn't be removed just because of the absence of game audio or other factors. The new guidelines to how wr/top 10 runs are proved shouldn't affect old records from 2018 or some past year. However from the current time to the future runs should be required to include sufficient proof in the correct format, or else the run should be refused and kept off leaderboards until the player has completed the satisfactory proof in the right way. I can’t think of a way to combat the question of how to disprove Luma/Rosalina menu patching or mods to the game other than from players using CTGP-7 with custom textures disabled. This could be shown before the initial recording of the run. Sorry this was lengthy, but I wanted to address everything I agreed or disagreed with. Hope you find good ways to improve the protocol! |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by Kleenex on 12/31/19 at 08:32:36 11363D3D2A1E1864530 wrote:
??????? |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by Frederiek on 01/01/20 at 12:29:15 @Paradox I have been talking to BMence and there are two things that I thought of: 1. He can agree with your rules. Maybe you can make a list (for yourself) who is agreeing with the rules. I think it’s already a long list. Most important is that you have all the updaters agreeing. That’s quite something. Add Cole to that list and you can be confident that you have enough support. 2. Custom music: I have the impression that everybody wants good proof and strict rules. The only thing they are divided about is the custom music. BMence thinks it’s unlikely that it will be used, but even more that it would give an advantage. Personally I still think that custom music can affect the gameplay. And I’m against all game modifications. So I would suggest we keep game audio in the rules, but we put less emphasis on it. Also, in the future someone will come up with a good video but no audio. You know refusing that proof will start the discussion again. So how should we handle it? BMence says: case by case. And personally I like that approach. (cases could be for example: if someone didn’t fully knew the rules or he didn’t manage to register the sound). But I don’t think you like that. You suggested no exceptions. So I have a personal suggestion: What if we are more strict for world records than top 10 times? World records must have game replay with game audio. Top 10 times must have the game replay but the audio isn’t mandatory? |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by Kleenex on 01/02/20 at 04:23:25 4E7A6D6C6D7A616D63383E080 wrote:
I don't like that idea. Look at Yacine, he only faked WW top 10's and this is probably because he knew he would be subject to less investigation from us. |
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Title: Re: [RULES] Participate in the decisions ^^ Post by paradox. on 01/02/20 at 04:26:35 41666F6F646F720A0 wrote:
I don't like that idea. Look at Yacine, he only faked WW top 10's and this is probably because he knew he would be subject to less investigation from us.[/quote] I agree with this. Top 10's and World Records need to have the same established rules. |
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