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Mario Kart >> Super Mario Kart >> History of NBT
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Message started by Moosecake on 09/20/18 at 13:54:30

Title: History of NBT
Post by Moosecake on 09/20/18 at 13:54:30

Hello,

I am new to the forum but not SMK. I took part in a competition at EGX (could have been different) in London around 3 years ago (I think...) which had SMK as the game. As soon as the venue opened I went straight over to sign up for the comp. I am happy to say that I won the whole thing against all of the other average Joe's to play against Sami's then prodigy. Her name escapes me now but she was obviously very good and I lost convincingly 9-1 in tracks - I think she was trying some new stuff out on the one I won but I took it anyway. I got my medal and a business card from Sami and went on my somewhat merry way but couldn't help feel a little...dejected with the experience. I had never seen or even heard of anyone using the NBT before that day, let alone played against someone who used it and I felt like I didn't stand a chance all along. Someone just gave me the ass whooping of a life time in the game I had played so much of throughout my life. I thought I was a fairly decent player until then and when I got home I started researching about world records and so on. This is where I found that NBT was being used everywhere! I felt frustrated that I couldn't do it as well. After that point I sold my SNES and all my games and left it there, disillusioned with the whole thing.

When the SNES Mini came out it rekindled my passion to play and that I did, beating my original times that were on my old cart. I have read a fair amount on why the mini won't/can't be used on here and that's fine, no more needs to be said (as saddening as that is for me to not be able to submit a time).

I spoke to someone recently as I wanted to see if any of my friends wanted to compete with me to see who could post the best time(s) using the mini as long as we kept to some rules:

- Non-NBT
- No shortcut taking (like on Ghost Valley 1)
- No save state/rewind manipulation

Someone questioned my tactics when I shaved over 2 seconds off their time on Mario Circuit 1 and asked if I was using NBT. I said no, I don't know how and I don't want to use glitches. They informed me that the NBT is not a glitch but actually an intended gameplay mechanic put in there by the devs. I have sought to find this information but fail to do so. As such I am here, asking your fine selves to shed some light on this topic and provide me some clarity.

My apologies for the lengthily first post but I wanted to add context to my question.

Cheers!

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Sami de la SMK on 09/20/18 at 15:24:29

Hi,

Nice to meet you again! We met at the last EGX before they stopped doing the shows at Earls Court. They have moved to Birmingham since so we haven't been there. I believe another one is on this weekend.

Just quickly to mention about the SNES mini, it is also globally NTSC based (i wish they had at least made the European ones PAL) as the same thing has confused some others. You probably beat some of your old times easily as it is faster than the PAL version. Hence why you might be a few seconds ahead, if they were expecting to be equal. Do you have any time examples of what they had and what you had on a couple of tracks?

NBT or New Boosting techniques (where you can use the boosts generated by power sliding for long enough to cut across grass / sand etc) were used by our community in the last 15 years. However they were already discovered in Japan way back in 1992 / 1993. We didn't have this information unfortunately for many years. But it is certainly something that was programmed in even if it feels slightly unnatural for a racing game. The similar off road boosts were implemented again in Mario Kart Super Circuit for the Game Boy Advance. The other Mario Kart games all have their mini turbos, some of which can be used to help cutting portions of off-road without loss (or much loss) of speed.

The NBT techniques are quite complex and only save x amount of time. Therefore players don't usually work on those techniques until they have reached a high rank with normal Non-NBT driving sharp round the corners on all of the tracks. Most commonly, players will reach into the Top 100 first, though some will start a bit earlier.

My main recommendation would be to get an original PAL snes console on ebay and PAL smk, then you can do everything properly. If your friends still have their original PAL snes then you will be able to compare with them, plus join us if you would like to. Otherwise if you just want to play for fun only with friends on the SNES mini, i would recommend doing a live stream recording to show them, unless they live nearby and can visit you. As long as they are using the same system (if they have the original PAL snes their times will be slower).

If you have any further questions, please feel free to email me on samicetin <at> yahoo <dot> com

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Moosecake on 09/21/18 at 13:03:40

Cheers for taking the time to reply and the clarification on the NBT. Seems baffling that Japan were doing this for so long before the west but it's also not a surprise at the same time.

I would love to get an actual SNES console again but with a young one on the way and living in a flat, I just don't have the space which was also another reason for getting the mini! It looks like I will have to try even harder on my mini to get the time down so it's comparable to a decent PAL time. I have no records of any of my old times which is a shame. I will no doubt get another actual SNES when kiddo grows up a bit so I can show him the ropes.

I think EGX moving to the NEC is the main reason I decided to go that year. Typically I just moved to London from Birmingham and they go the opposite way!

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Sumner21 on 11/27/18 at 10:01:48

What proof do we have that the zigzag nbt mechanics were deliberate?
Everything I have ever read leads me to the fact that it is just an oversight in a very basic whileloop.
All other nbt such as gas release and water slides etc Im sure are deliberate.

I think many people confuse themselves since all post snes karts employ a zigzag boost building method and assume its deliberate but I think this glitch actually lead us to the newer (left right left right) boosting system.

Its only my opinion and if someone can point me to some proof I will quickly change my tune.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Antistar on 11/27/18 at 12:57:33

I wouldn't call this "solid proof" but there was a (retired) French SMK player called Olivier Antoine (http://www.mariokart64.com/smk/profile.php?pid=25) who had high skills in terms of gaming code and development, and analyzed the game ROM in its "deepest depths" to conclude NBT was an intentional move from the game developers. He explained why and how with technical terms I can't really cope with :-[ but he's a trustftul player within the French SMk community and there's no doubt he told the truth about this.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Sumner21 on 11/27/18 at 13:23:20

fair enough I'm not saying anyone is wrong I would actually like to see the proof or whatever for myself.
I have always thought it is because nintendo assumed using a regular pad that you would not really attempt this move meaning more "oversight" than "deliberate"

The charging loop would be as easy as (with a 1 meaning button pressed and 0 being unpressed)
boost = B * (R or L) * (left or right) If boost=1 increment the boost counter which I believe has to reach a value of 74 to "lock in" a boost.
This would have to be run every frame so therefore must be kept as simple as possible to keep cpu power available.

Maybe you are correct since simply changing the "OR" to "XOR" between the left and right would have rendered direction change super difficult since with an OR you can have both on to generate a 1 but XOR must have one on and one off to generate the 1

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Sami de la SMK on 11/28/18 at 02:30:06

Also as I mentioned years ago, not totally relevant but notice how pretty much every other Mario Kart game all involves holding R and pressing left-right-left-right-left-right etc to charge a boost? The same movement you would do for a zig zag boost in SMK. You can get some of the mini turbos with one slide, yes. But they are forcefully generated more with the zig zag style. Infact it is probably literally all of the other Mario Kart games.

So if we are wrong then it was just coincidence that they made it function with the zig zag style in 7 other Mario Kart games in a row. Oliviers research was solid enough. to point it in the direction that they were programming in these variations into SMK. Then it looks like with the sequels they decided to keep a similar format every time. Just changed the execution timing / speed / angles etc.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Zarkov on 11/28/18 at 02:53:57

My main issue with zigzagging in NBT being an intentional thing is that for it to work most of the time you have to modify your controller. Theres no way Nintendo would put that into their game if every controller didnt do that out of the box.

Ive always been of the opinion that the long powerslide giving you a boost was 100% intentional, but the zigzagging we do to obtain a boost is 'gaming' the game to get one, so therefore not intentional but an easily exploitable trick.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Sami de la SMK on 11/28/18 at 08:25:20

484A4545444548474A59402B0 wrote:

That's where zig zagging can work regardless but maybe they didn't intend for us to squeeze in extra little NBTs in obscure places. Like the one on GV2 after the platform jump or the way we do DP3 fastlap now combining so many techniques. There we have 'gamed' it further yes.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Antistar on 11/28/18 at 13:16:44

7C7E717170717C737E6D741F0 wrote:

I would think the same if there were not so many places that can be precisely cut entirely thanks to NBT. They're just too many to see only concidences there.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by ScouB on 11/30/18 at 14:13:24

Yeh the boost is definetly intended, we just pushed it to the extreme with zigzags, and I remember doing wide zigzag boosts 16years ago on MC1 with a non-nbt pad. ;D

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by eoJ on 11/30/18 at 16:46:38

I always knew about the long powerslide boost, but it wasn't until I joined the players' page and used a third party controller that I really utilized NBTs heavily. I remember getting the BC1 world record with straightboosts coming out of every 90 degree turn, and that really helped me get the mechanics down to try them on other tracks. Blew all of my times away after that, and the rest is history. [smiley=beer.gif]

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Sumner21 on 12/01/18 at 07:44:42

Agreed Scoub my BC2 original strat before i even discovered the players site and nbt even such as gas release, used a single zigzag nbt around the 4 thwomp corner with a standard controller.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Bat242 on 02/12/19 at 07:10:41

Hello!

So im playing this game since the day it came out, and i would say im pretty good at it. Winning every small tournament in my area, and i even cant remember when i lost my last Match Race, or met someone who came even close in beating my track records.

some weeks ago someone told me to look up the world records and see if i can challenge those. Well ok, did that, and man am i slow compared to the wr's.

Of course i looked up "NBT" when i saw the actual world records. And here is my problem with it:

It shoud not be legal for world records. Because the SNES Controller was not designed to press left and right at the same time.

The zigzag boosts and things that can be achieved with an unmodified SNES Controller, are totally fine. But what i have seen so far, are videos where the inputs are shown, and multiple direction buttons are pressed at the same time, even all 4 at once.

Dont get me wrong, i like exploring games and driving them to the limit. But as an competetive e-sport player for over 20 years now, in every tournament, in every game, in every exhebition. You have to play vanilla. You cant modify the game files, you cant modify inputs (via scripts or anything), you play the game it was intendet to be played.
So at the moment NBTs are a way of cheating for me. Please dont take this the wrong way, i just want to understand why this is so openly accepted and not really discussed anywhere.
Are controller modifications allowed in any other retro videogame that is speedrunned? I would love to know.

And yes i've seen the Non-NBT Record Website, and its pretty dead compared to the NBT category. But i will give it a try :)

So, hello again, im the new one ^^

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Danger M on 02/12/19 at 07:45:28

^the issue with that is you would also need to ban people from using 3rd party controllers (since many of them are naturally pro-nbt) and also ban people from using offical controllers once they reach a certain age/amount of use (because they too become more pro-nbt as they are used). Eventually you would just need to ban all controllers and close the site, unless Nintendo started producing new controllers for some reason.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Dan H on 02/12/19 at 08:01:11

Modding controllers was allowed for the reason Moll points out: some controllers come out of the box as able to do NBTs. I've had two of them arrive at my doorstep that way, and I know for a fact KVD's is the same. This would be an unfair advantage to the players who just happen to have a good controller. Either that, or everyone would just go find a controller that suits their needs. In the end, having this knowledge and being open about it (and how to go about achieving the desired result) just levels the playing field. This level playing field has allowed this game to be pushed to the limit by the best in the world, all the while using strats that were intentionally coded into the game.

One thing about modded controllers in other games or on other systems is that being able to press Left+Right at the same time allows you to move faster in one direction. Super Mario World is an example of this; you can fly to the right as balloon Mario or in a Lakitu cloud at double speed with a L+R press. Same with Zelda II on NES, L+R really messes that game up, as it does on Battle of Olympus and several other games, I'm sure. In SMK, pressing L+R does nothing to actually increase your speed, it just allows you to continue steering without losing input for a frame. MKSC is the same way and has allowed modded dpads for the same reasons.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by ScouB on 02/12/19 at 08:16:57

Also if you don't like NBT, just do like Johan and wander on :
http://www.mariokartplayers.com/smknonnbt/

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Danger M on 02/12/19 at 08:21:58

Yeh, you can still join and do non-nbt, there is no requirement for it. It is possible to get well within the top50 without using any nbt at all (and on some tracks you can wr using non-nbt).

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Zarkov on 02/12/19 at 08:33:37

1E3C3F3F530 wrote:

unless Nintendo started producing new controllers for some reason.

Technically they did with the SNES Mini. [smiley=nicewr.gif]

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Danger M on 02/12/19 at 08:34:18

^ but you can't use them on a snes since they have wii style connections

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Zarkov on 02/12/19 at 08:34:57

Hence the 'technically' :BlackBass:

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Lafungo on 02/12/19 at 08:50:43

6C4F5A1C1A1C2E0 wrote:

So im playing this game since the day it came out, and i would say im pretty good at it. Winning every small tournament in my area, and i even cant remember when i lost my last Match Race, or met someone who came even close in beating my track records.

You should attend CDM this summer. I would be happy to play Match Race with you (even with the restriction of playing Non-NBT if you want), and I'm sure others would too.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Zarkov on 02/12/19 at 09:23:40

Indeed, I'm also happy to play you. Il even show you advanced double lightnings strats.

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Antistar on 02/12/19 at 09:40:46

5E7374677C757D120 wrote:

[quote author=6C4F5A1C1A1C2E0 link=1537480470/0#13 date=1549984241]
So im playing this game since the day it came out, and i would say im pretty good at it. Winning every small tournament in my area, and i even cant remember when i lost my last Match Race, or met someone who came even close in beating my track records.

You should attend CDM this summer. I would be happy to play Match Race with you (even with the restriction of playing Non-NBT if you want), and I'm sure others would too.[/quote]
Same there. We'd be very happy to know your timeset too, because we also care about the non-NBT rankings and records history. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by KVD on 02/12/19 at 10:02:32

If you think we are only good by virtue of using boosts, get a load of this:

http://youtu.be/yb3aIdH5n7c

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by Bat242 on 02/13/19 at 01:10:30

1C383F3F34021F1E062530510 wrote:

Thank you, the explanation with the controllers makes sense. I opened a lot of SNES Controllers in my time, but never had one with a worn out bump though.
I just compared it to the Tetris World Championship, where only unmodified original Controllers are allowed. If it would be discovered, that you can lower the dropping speed of the pieces by pressing multiple direction buttons at once... it would be banned from competition.

So anyway, im gonna train those NBT's now. Maybe ill get the hang of it :)

Title: Re: History of NBT
Post by KVD on 02/13/19 at 04:45:02

Good luck, if you're passionate about SMK after all these years, I highly recommend you to join the upcoming SMK world championships in August. They are expected to take place in Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands. Should be doable for you, as it looks like you're from Mannheim?