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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Mario Kart 8 >> Thoughts on the MK8 Page https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1491513890 Message started by Rookie on 04/06/17 at 13:24:50 |
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Title: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Rookie on 04/06/17 at 13:24:50 So I have quite a few things that I think need to be pointed out, about the game's future, and general improvements / modifications I think should be added to the MK8PP. I'd like to throw out some opinions in general, and if we don't decide to take any of them up, I'd at least like to discuss everything so we can reach a common consensus on everything. First of all, we need to talk about charts. With Deluxe coming out, I think no separate page should be made personally. Essentially, I think the solution to everything will be separate charts. Since it's confirmed that some karts have stat changes, it's likely that all the tracks will have different WRs and average times, etc. It'd be comparable to PAL vs NTSC on the SMK Page I think. We wouldn't have a way to integrate them / combine the times, but it shouldn't count as an entirely new game worth a new page in my eyes considering that the track list is identical. Much like SMK, the times you can obtain between versions are different, but the track list and basic mechanics seem to be the same/similar. I think if we were to make it a separate chart, it'd be not only confusing, but it would mess a lot with the combined rankings and bias strong MK8 players heavily over any other game as well. If you agree with me up until now, here's where things start to get tricky I guess. 200cc TTs are now confirmed also, so it's likely that we'll need separate charts for those as well. So not only would we be introducing separate charts for Deluxe, we'd be creating separate charts for separate charts. What makes this even stranger is how we handle this for combined ranks also, since lots of pages take your better ranking of the game (like MKW Glitch vs No Glitch). However, you could argue that 200cc vs 150cc is significantly different as opposed to Glitch vs No Glitch, seeing how not every track is different / glitched. And where this separate charts thing gets even more messed up is here. This is definitely one of the more debatable topics, but I think we need to rediscuss it, because the more time has gone by, the more I realize that it was more of a problem then we initially suspected it to be. This is an issue of Advantage vs Non Advantage times. I think we initially passed it off because we thought of it to simply be a Wii Wheel issue, and everyone thought it was justified because the wheel is harder to use anyway, and all the wheelers kinda got screwed in MKW, etc, but we aren't discussing the use of D-Pad at all, which doesn't force people to train through gyro controls. For someone who has played every game in the series and participated on the page for all of them, this thing alone killed my entire drive to try to stay competitive on this game as long as possible in TT and even online, but especially TT since many other players were getting better times than me when our runs were probably equivalent in cleanliness / lack of mistakes. I simply think we got this call wrong, and that we should've gone through with making separate charts for Non Advantage. It's like PAL vs NTSC on MK64 because it completely changes the mechanics of how the game plays and who gets faster times, but to a lesser extent. Even though it is a lesser extent in the end, it's still a significant difference (seconds, which can be the difference between 100 spots on some tracks depending where you are on the page). Of course, players who play stick and dpad could still submit separate profiles for each if they like both. It is 2017, and I know these changes would be very hard. Who do we know D-Pads / uses advantage? How are we supposed to go back and know? Well, the answer is we won't for everyone on the page. But I don't think that should stop us from trying honestly. I'm sure we'd at least know for nearly the entire top 200 unless someone was self conscious and lied about whether or not they use advantage, but I still think we could restructure the site quite a bit. We missed out a lot on people in MKW who didn't do no glitch times, but they still went for it. PRB vs Non-PRB was an issue that only top MKDS players were concerned with, much like advantage. I think it's safe to say that a vast majority of the lower ranks aren't active enough to think about using dpad for better times or care that much anyway, so I think assuming most of those times are non advantage wouldn't be harmful really as well. If we go through with separate charts for advantage though, and I really think we should, there will still be a lot of questions to ask. Will MK8D have advantage? Are we really doing separate charts for 200cc, Deluxe, and Non-Advantage? Yeah, it's a lot, I'll be the first to admit it. Maybe even complex, but with an ambitious package of a game like MK8, I don't think there's anything wrong with having the most categories of any page, and I don't think it should stop us from just having a page with quite a few different types of rankings honestly. I just really think we shouldn't be making entire separate pages for essentially what is the same game with minor differences. The differences are notable still, but not new games. That's why I think we should revamp the page to account for all types of players in the future, even though some things we won't know we need for sure until after Deluxe comes out. -------------- Some other stuff I wanted to mention. I think we need another news writer - another, not a new one. I worked with the 7 page back when it was at it's most active. Often times it had 40 people a week or something, and we wrote about them all. It was actually really stressful; and the more we put it off when we just couldn't have the time, the more work it just created in the long run. The reason why I was able to do this job for a while and stay sane was because Zap helped me through it, and even Nicola / Lee sometimes also. What I'm saying is for an active game with a still active scene, we simply need more people writing because it's a super hefty job for one person to bare, and one person shouldn't have to do it. I think Jazzy is great and would love to see him keep up the good work and keeping the PPs all great. But I think we need some relief, with at least one more writer, maybe even a 3rd. This way, there is more break time, everyone does less work, but the page stays more updated and the people are happier overall. All pages are supposed to have a weekly update, but with the amount going on with MK8 still, I think we need more people to achieve this. I can't currently do this, and I'm sorry. I have too much on my plate right now. But there's gotta be a few people out there willing to volunteer, and start getting involved in the community. We just have to make the effort to find them, or give some new faces a chance. Lastly this is a minor nitpick, and I blame me and the MK7 community for letting this take off too much. But I think the fake names / gamertags on the pages either need to go, or be heavily discouraged. I know there isn't anything impractical about having them on the charts, it's not the end of the world, but it just makes the PP not really feel like the PP for me, and many others that I've talked to about this issue for over a year now. It's understandable that people may not want to use a real identity, and that's not a problem. But the entire page just looks like a giant meme now instead of news. It's not difficult to just come up with a fake identity that at least looks real, and still feel like a legitimate news page. It was always a unique niche about the PP that the normal MK community didn't have. The PP news always felt like a news source writing about real people, and we always knew who everyone is (the involved people, that is). I go by Rookie on every forum, but I've always been Sam Smith on the pages, just like many others (my news partner Zap for example, Callum Douglas). The 7 and 8 pages simply don't feel like traditional players pages as a result I guess, and I think something should be done to change it and make it feel like an extension from the classic MK pages, not something new entirely all together, really. Thanks for reading my lengthy rambles. Looking forward to getting opinions from everyone and hopefully see some changes for the better in the upcoming future. TL;DR - - Make MK8 & MK8D same page with separate charts - Be ready to make lots of separate charts on this page, for 200cc also - Seriously reconsider the inclusion of non advantage charts - Add more news updaters - Change Name Policy back to a more formal name system Also, apparently there's some new stuff regarding Mike's WP / DS floating around. So to those who are currently important in this community and know more than me, find that out and test it. If he's legit after all, it may be worth some discussion also since he was reported having someone else TT for him in the past also for top 10s. Sketchy case, but needs to be looked into for sure. Ask Simon / Kyle Wade for more details, I think. |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Jazzy on 04/06/17 at 15:18:56 Okay I read the entire post. I have some great news: that the new PP I'm working on will address mostly everything here in some fashion. Let's go over it one by one:
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Rookie on 04/06/17 at 15:33:26 I always wanted to add a "Tag" option to the profiles. I think Normal Name should be the first thing displayed, then gamertag as the option personally, just because it's always been like that around here. Additionally, what is this new PP you're working on? Is deluxe getting it's own page on the site? I really don't think it's necessary honestly, and really think it'd be more beneficial to just do separate charts; same tracks, with slight differences is just the PAL vs NTSC issue all over again. |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Jazzy on 04/06/17 at 15:36:14 Players will have the option of whether their real name or username are displayed by default. If we really wanted, we could make it real name by default always (if provided), but I'll leave it as is for now. The "new PP" is a project I've been working on since May of 2015. It's a complete overhaul of the MK8PP, both for Wii U and Deluxe (in one site), with a mobile site, account system, PR history, and other improvements. I'm trying to get it launched by the release of Deluxe. |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Rookie on 04/06/17 at 15:48:35 It's still going to be on this domain, right? Feel like that's the most important part, after all. As in, it'll still be http://mariokart64.com/mk8 For both MK8 & MK8D? |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Mick on 04/06/17 at 16:06:26 I actually feel bad that you spent all this time writing this thread, because almost everything concern that you mentioned has been addressed in the new version of the MK8PP that is coming this month! However, since you spent all that effort writing that post, I'll also elaborate point by point about what's going to happen for the most part. And those who are still out of the loop can catch up on the matter and give their opinion. About Wii U/Switch charts There will indeed be two new categories for the Deluxe version (150cc and 200cc) for the reasons you already outlined, and those will stand alongside the 2 existing Wii U categories on the same site. They'll be all accessible with toggles near the top of the page, under the banner. Combined rankings shouldn't cause too much issues since the formula is heavily dependant on the number of players on a given chart, meaning that, on an underplayed category, you cannot earn as many combined points. What I'm more worried about is having that many categories that don't even differ significantly gameplay wise (3 of them are 150cc and potentially involve the same techs) which run the risk of splitting the competition. Shall we have 4 different champions for example? Thing is it would be really unfair to void the efforts of the Wii U players (and those who never got the DLC/quit before it) to the benefit of the newer Switch players, so it is not conceivable to remove any existing categories. It remains to be seen what awaits us for the 150cc TTs on MK8DX. If it turns out slower overall than the Wii U version, I can't see many people ever bothering with them, and there may not be enough competition to justify a chart in the end, but that's heavy speculation on my part. Maybe the Switch will bring much more new blood than anticipated? About controller advantages There will the option to precise what controller you're using between non-advantage controls, Wiimote D-pad, Wheel/Gyro and even Unknown if you really can't remember what you used. Since that is a sizeable variable to combine with the different categories, we have thought early on that it wasn't a good idea to make separate charts within each category. Instead you'll have the option to sort the charts, with toggles near the charts to remove/add the controller options you don't want to see, which I believe is a fair compromise considering the situation explained the paragraph above we're already dealing with. Note that times carrying over from the current site obviously won't have controller icons, but those can be manually added later eventually by staff provided we get informed by the players. Ideally it would be nice if we could get that info for the ~top 25 of each track in the future. And of course if we find out controller advantages somehow return in MK8DX, we'll take that into account too! About news News writing as a feature isn't ready yet, though it will be one of the top priorities after the new site is launched. Ultimately it's up the community to pick up the slack and try their hands at news, even if once in a while, or a collaborative work. One silver lining is that, as times updating will become more streamlining, this should leave more time for potential times updaters to get involved in news writing if they feel like it. About usernames The new site will support both real names and usernames (and we already did the sorting for the existing players). You can choose which one of the two you want displayed on the site, with real name being the default option. The player list will still display both so you can more easily find the player you're looking for. Unfortunately we can't really influence too much what names our players want to use on the site. Previous attempts at dissuading people to use not real/weird names haven't been fruitful, and with the increasing care about internet privacy in our culture, this is isn't a trend that will be going away anytime soon. Once again we have tried to find a compromise that cater to both camps, but there will always be a few that cannot be satisfied... If you have more questions about the new site, or if you have more comments/disagree with some of the stuff I have laid out, I'm (and Jazzy) are all ears. Hopefully the upcoming events regarding MK8DX and the site transition will become more clear in a few days. Stealth edit : Seems I also spent a bit too much time writing in here, as Jazzy already commented on your thread. And yes, the new site's hyperlink will eventually be the same as the current one, but probably not at launch (the current site should get archived like with the old MK64 PP). |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Rookie on 04/06/17 at 22:26:57 Thanks for the comments guys, I'm looking forward to the future. I must say that things may be getting quite perplexing, but I feel like there simply may just not be a way around this. I have a feeling though that unlike PAL vs NTSC, we have the benefit of our players filling out multiple timesheets - I know there's a lot of people like me who would likely do a 150 / 200 one, and then one for mk8d if the mechanics are different / there are better kart stats available, and even do Non Advantage Times if they're an advantaged player also. What I mean is that it'd be easier to play more categories than PAL / NTSC because you'd have to get your hands on a different version to begin with there. It's hard to recommend any one way in particular right now on how to go about everything, but I think we may simply have to wait and see, especially with the 150cc option on MK8D and how much it actually differs. One thing I wish I could see is potentially Non Advantage AF filters, but I have a feeling it won't be happening unfortunately due to how difficult it'd be to obtain details dating back to 2014 now. I just really hope there's no advantage in MK8D, though I think there may be with gyro controls still. Either take away advantage, or give the characteristics over to the stick controls as well. At least I wish. Anyway, thanks for some clarifications. |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Mick on 04/07/17 at 03:31:32 Filters for rankings have no chances happening on the Wii U version. Too many players on the site that aren't around anymore, and even out of those that still are, a few may not necessarily remember what they used on a given track. For that matter, I doubt there are many that have done a full timeset with d-pad on even wheel. From what I've seen, plenty use a mix of stick or d-pad depending on the track played. So competition in full rankings for a given controller would end up being minuscule anyway. On the subject, I have another issue which I didn't bring up in my previous post, which is controller proof. For wheel or gyro controls, you have the wheel icon visible in the game for the applicable times, but there no such thing to show times that are definitely d-pad without a video. In addition, while pointing out d-pad usage is quite easy for anyone on offroad tracks, this isn't as much the case on other tracks, moreso for lower ranked times.. So not only you'd kinda need hard proof for d-pad times, you'd also need a times verifier qualified enough to tell d-pad and stick apart, otherwise it'd be trivial for a d-pad player to claim non-adv times like that. That is tough but not impossible challenge for us, but is it really worth the effort? I guess a way to recognise the best non-adv record on the new site could be a good start, but the controller advantage debate isn't something that we want to focus on right now. If controller advantages indeed return however, it'll be worth discussing possible implications for the Switch charts since we'll be starting anew there. |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Colvin on 04/07/17 at 08:57:14 What about new standards for MK8? |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Jazzy on 04/07/17 at 14:58:52 10313A3A3D27173B38223D3A6362540 wrote:
I'd like to see these come with time, but right now they are not on my priority list. I'd like to get stuff for MK8 DX sorted out before we work on standards. |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by ORANGE.gov on 04/07/17 at 18:56:11 Is the GamePad non-advantage? |
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Title: Re: Thoughts on the MK8 Page Post by Colvin on 04/07/17 at 19:06:57 0A37242B222007372A7777450 wrote:
Yes as long as have motion controls turned off. |
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