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Mario Kart >> Super Mario Kart >> Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Trial)
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Message started by Sami de la SMK on 01/25/17 at 10:03:33

Title: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Trial)
Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/25/17 at 10:03:33

As mentioned, should we have the Pipe and wall boosting strats on the Players Site as an accepted NBT technique? Understand this is not for Non-NBT as it involves going off road in the pipe boost cases.

Or should we create charts within the Trick / Glitch pages for those strategies; an MC3 example has been discussed before.

Again, no rush for this one, please take time to discuss and vote. I do feel any strategy should have a chart at least, thats why the additional trick charts are there, but please vote and lets see what everyone thinks.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 01/25/17 at 10:26:12

Should be allowed for the normal nbt chart.
At least the mc3 strat done by Chris.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Firewaster on 01/25/17 at 11:33:02

Although these kinds of strats drive me a little away from those courses (It would take too long to master them, and I don't feel like doing so), it seems to me that we should allow all of them.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 01/25/17 at 12:25:22

Agreed with the above.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Aron Langerak on 01/25/17 at 13:57:19

Good argument to say no! But I guess I'm the only one too bad :(

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Danger M on 01/25/17 at 14:02:34

Was going to vote to not allow it but Aron would have just flipped at me and said my argument was weak so voted to allow it instead.

So if these all get allowed will the Japanese times (like the 59"97 MC2) be added?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/25/17 at 14:59:12

7E5C5F5F330 wrote:

So if these all get allowed will the Japanese times (like the 59"97 MC2) be added?

I remember a sub minute on MC2 NTSC using pipe boosting at the hairpin and that Neo provided us this video to watch, that was like 8 or 9 years ago on the French board, so I guess this 59"97 by a Japanese is from the same person?! But is he/she registered on the PP? And maybe I'm wrong but I think this record was a TAS.

Sami, just a precision; by Pipe boosting strats do you include every 'hit & boost' strat like hitting a pipe, hitting a wall, etc? Can you just clarify this point, I am going to vote yes to allow all of them.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Danger M on 01/25/17 at 15:14:45

The vids are in this thread (Look for Neo's post) http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301688171

From what was discussed after I think it was understood they were real times driven on a snes (well a sf anyway).

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Zarkov on 01/25/17 at 23:07:57

It should be allowed, but only if its known as Zarkov Pipe Hitting.

http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1126481440

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by A Runnelid on 01/25/17 at 23:46:16

I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed, considering players have been long boosting in Time Trial since the dawn of ti... ever since it was discovered.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 01:22:58

Regarding the MC2 vid, it was considered to most likely be a TAS due to the insanely high level of driving from an unknown player. It basically beats our flap WR by over a tenth, every lap. Of course there is a chance that it could be real (and that's not trivial!), but the time was never submitted to our rankings and we don't know the person it belongs to. Language, community and time (passing of the years) barriers don't make it any easier either. I don't think we should simply add the time to our rankings, not until we know a lot more metadata at least (including a full timesheet, as is always required).

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 01/26/17 at 01:56:09

77584354465042455443310 wrote:

Although these kinds of strats drive me a little away from those courses (It would take too long to master them, and I don't feel like doing so), it seems to me that we should allow all of them.

I agree on this and it prevents me from giving an accurate answer, so I didn't vote. :-/

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/26/17 at 04:58:08

0E24372029450 wrote:

It was driven by Marisa Soutyou on SFC in 2008 and he made several PRs on other courses in the years following that, although he didn't focus on every track, just the favourites it seemed. He didn't submit the new PRs to the rankings though and the pipe boost subject was left and we kept things as they were.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 05:07:04

What?? Are you really sure that it was driven on SFC?! How would we know this to a reasonable degree of certainty? If so, that's one hell of a sick WR though... :o

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 05:09:40

0D2F2C2C400 wrote:

The vids are in this thread (Look for Neo's post) http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1301688171

Thanks Moll this is precisely the video with the pipe boosting at the hairpin I was talking, but now the only weird thing that I have to figure out is why the hell I'm convinved that Neo showed us these things 8 or 9 years ago and on the French board :-? Well, I was probably just mistaken with something else, though.

0D2F2C2C400 wrote:

From what was discussed after I think it was understood they were real times driven on a snes (well a sf anyway).

755F4C5B523E0 wrote:

Regarding the MC2 vid, it was considered to most likely be a TAS due to the insanely high level of driving from an unknown player.

And I agree with Karel, I still think that was a TAS done by, an unknown player? Or maybe done by someone who has a high level on MC2 LB-- Neo in disguise? (this is just an example ^^) @can you just tell me who the hell is Akita Sounori and his message on Yahoo! on April 1st, 2011? [smiley=roll.gif]

Edit: Oh ok, the 0'59"97 on MC2 NTSC JP was done by Marisa Soutyou without TAS and in 2008, so everything makes sense to me now, case closed, thanks Sami! :)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/26/17 at 05:24:22

62485B4C45290 wrote:

What?? Are you really sure that it was driven on SFC?! How would we know this to a reasonable degree of certainty? If so, that's one hell of a sick WR though... :o

Marisa told me years ago when I asked him about it, and Ha Nyan confirmed he was legit playing on SFC. Ha Nyan also told me in his opinion that Marisa is the strongest skilled Time Trial player in Japan, just unfortunately Marisa didn't have focus on all of the tracks or communicate as much. Although I still think Ha Nyan's potential is up there too with his VL2 success in more recent years and some other times. Some of Marisa's other PRs were also very strong, but the MC2 was his most powerful and favourite track. With the pipe boosting, the sub minute barrier was possible so he must have taken interest to go for it.

Akita Sounori revealed the videos later out of the blue, i think Marisa was excited to find the strat and wanted to try to get that barrier first before revealing anything. It is a shame that Akita become very busy and inactive as well. Takashi was even going to try to meet Akita 2-3 years ago at an event in Japan from what he told me but that didn't happen i think they were busy in the end.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 05:50:58

Holy shit man, I hope someone can still contact Marisa so that we can somehow validate him for the site. This record of him deserves to be officially recognized (if it's indeed legit)!

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/26/17 at 06:46:37

0E24372029450 wrote:

Holy shit man, I hope someone can still contact Marisa so that we can somehow validate him for the site. This record of him deserves to be officially recognized (if it's indeed legit)!

Im already on it, he doesnt respond too often but hopefully hel get back to me soon. I know he hasnt done any PRs for some time but would be good if can get that sorted especialy if he has invested a lot of time in certain tracks.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 07:52:45

With a time of that magnitude from someone relatively outside of our community we're gonna maybe need more than 'just' a video though...opinions?
I seem to recall that's why the whole deal bounced in the first place, back then. :-/

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/26/17 at 09:00:35

715B485F563A0 wrote:

We couldnt come to a decision and the subject just faded. True, it could be difficult after this long time since he played MC2 in 2008 to get some additional proof; at least there were videos by Marisa rather than nothing (with thanks to Akita for showing them on his behalf). Normally videos are sufficient proof, but as the record is strong and with a new technique we just wanted to be sure. I'l see if I can get any news from Marisa directly. With luck he may be a "semi-retired" player like some of us here and if there is any chance to get him back to playing and more communicative that would be fantastic, unless he has retired fully in the recent years. We only really had the videos we have seen, and Ha Nyan and Akita to vouch for his driving skill / level.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 09:03:29

13212D29400 wrote:

I know he hasnt done any PRs for some time but would be good if can get that sorted especialy if he has invested a lot of time in certain tracks.

That sounds like really promising [smiley=smokin.gif]

02303C38510 wrote:

Marisa is the strongest skilled Time Trial player in Japan

I believe you Sami, and after watching again his work on MC2 and as many shall be amazed personaly I'll just try not to pester if this monster has already subbed CI2, again like 8 or 9 years ago [smiley=roll.gif]

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 02/05/17 at 02:46:02

Seems there wasn't any vote in a week.
What's the way forward there ?

Had a 16"33* on MC3 btw, didn't post it on the MB.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Chrono Krysster on 02/05/17 at 06:34:17

6B47544F491E10260 wrote:

[quote author=12382B3C35590 link=1485366979/50#64 date=1485631347]the flesh and blood of this community are and always will be the active players.

the truth[/quote]

0C3C302A1D5F0 wrote:

Seems there wasn't any vote in a week.

Yep, so it's definitely the truth, and it seems like this oligarchy -the flesh and blood of this community- will remain forever as it is and I'm ok with that, and the active players and Sami also did the good job so the people are aware from his site and can come to vote here, but as we can see it's just sad that some (lots) of them are retired or inactive actually and will probably learn the news later or too late or never, but what can we do now.. nothing because we aren't tyrants to force them to come and put a vote ;D

Motto of the day: The people who succeed are those who are aware of the rules.

0C3C302A1D5F0 wrote:

What's the way forward there ?

Good question but when I look at the poll I get an answer but since it's not over and since Sami asked to look at how much impact these strategies will have on the current times so maybe we can start with a list of the tracks where all the different pipe-wall-iceblock-woodblock boosting strats are 100% doable but with more or less efficiency:

-MC1 DP1 GV1 BC1 MC2
-CI1 GV2 DP2 BC2 MC3
----- CI2 VL1 BC3 MC4
-DP3 KB2 GV3 VL2 ----

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 02/05/17 at 08:28:33

1B2B273D0A480 wrote:

Seems there wasn't any vote in a week.
What's the way forward there ?

Had a 16"33* on MC3 btw, didn't post it on the MB.

I have another (important) question : if we allow new strats, who open new ways to destroy the current WRs, may the current standards evolve? :-?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Chrono Krysster on 02/05/17 at 11:40:23

103C2F3432656B5D0 wrote:

I have another (important) question : if we allow new strats, who open new ways to destroy the current WRs

"Destroy"?? ~~I guess~~ I'm pretty sure it will be by those who possess the tools of their destruction ;D and remember that it started with you Antistar since you were in fact the pioneer in this way of trying new strats and you subbed the 10" barrier on CI1 years ago to see your work banned, it even started with a joke about this one, but it's amazing to see so many things starting with a joke with you and then finish to be important threads like also your topic "What ordinary/boring things happened to you today" ;) About CI1 "SC" you persevered and so you were right because that was exactly as you said completely obscure, out of date and making absolutely no sense at all.
So, who open the next things? We know that Marisa, Chris, ScouB and surely more people discovered/opened other new ways and if there are no objections I'll also share and add my little contribution too, so I'm very confident that a lot more is coming with this strategy; basically the pipe/wall boosting is just a combo of two effects but with two different applications possible it's 'first hit & then boost' or 'first boost and then hit', and regarding the WRs of SMK I think Sami is going again to be the greatest kartjobs president that God ever created! [smiley=zark.gif] But still depending on the polls and his final point of view obviously!http://www.mariokart64.com/yabbfiles/mafia.png

103C2F3432656B5D0 wrote:

may the current standards evolve? :-?

Do you remember ScouB saying "Super Myth+" ;D but to hear "super" here and there feels like it is an overused word now :-X why not being kinda original if the standards evolve and use things like Supra, Mega, Giga, and Tera Myth+ ^^

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Fabrice Baro on 02/07/17 at 06:26:29

It's exciting to see all those new strats, even if I'll probably never get to the level where I can actually use them. To me it seems it's the natural evolution of the game, although I would understand the frustration of players who retired before they were discovered.

But again, the same can be said with NBT in general, look for example at players like Simon who is certainly one of the most skilled SMK players (in TT at least) but who didn't really use NBTs. As a result he is only ranked in the top 30.

So it's the natural order of things. As for the standards... Not too sure because I'm relatively new.
However it's my feeling that only the top skilled players will be able to use them successfully. So maybe a standard change is not warranted.

And if yes, maybe only the courses where those strats can be used should be regraded.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by MD_Neo on 02/12/17 at 11:54:40

Just a quick message to say that I think I would be in favor of allowing these pipe-boosting strats (as well as the SC on CI1 of course) on the TT site. Pretty sure that I won't use them either (as I'm pretty retired from TT for a few years), but I like the idea of the WRs being pushed to new limits with next level strats involving skills.
That being said, I will be supporting Sami, whatever decision he takes regarding this debate :)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 02/18/17 at 02:21:50

President Trump made a choice :

http://superparigokart.free.fr/trumpdraws_pipeboost_is_allowed.gif

::)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 02/18/17 at 03:18:25

Well played! ;D

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Chrono Krysster on 02/18/17 at 06:59:54

01313D2710520 wrote:

President Trump made a choice :

http://superparigokart.free.fr/trumpdraws_pipeboost_is_allowed.gif

::)

:D

Donald Trump is the greatest President of all time!!! [smiley=roll.gif]

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Humanoidgale on 02/18/17 at 09:37:49

63535F4572300 wrote:

President Trump made a choice :

http://superparigokart.free.fr/trumpdraws_pipeboost_is_allowed.gif

::)

ha!!! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 02/20/17 at 11:21:13

12222E3403410 wrote:

President Trump made a choice :

http://superparigokart.free.fr/trumpdraws_pipeboost_is_allowed.gif

::)

lol, for once he allows something

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by djo on 03/09/17 at 13:04:24

Have voted [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by PEG on 03/09/17 at 13:36:50

I'm trying to wrap my head around the logic that would allow apparent glitching of the game (longboost & infinite boost of MC2?) but doesn't allow simple strategies like pipe boosting that I was trying (and failing miserably) to do back in 1995 . Or hoping over the wall in chocolate island? That stuff isn't even close to the level of "glitching" the game compared to those boosts.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 03/10/17 at 00:47:16

It's a fallacy that groups of people always behave in a logical manner. Even when they try to.

The infinite boost on MC2 is currently not allowed btw. Long boost is, but it was decided in a different era. We have learned from our mistakes in that respect. Because we were too carefree with allowing new strategies in the past (the infinite boost being the point in case, we had to reverse that decision later), we are now dealing with every decision much less hastily. Though I feel perhaps the time has now come to really consider allowing these strategies for incorporation to the Players' Site rankings. The discussion has pretty much come to a stop for weeks now and the results are pretty clear (especially on allowing the pipeboost).

What's your current stance on this situation Sami? In terms of time frame also?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 03/10/17 at 05:27:36

674D5E49402C0 wrote:

Hi Karel,

Well how does everyone feel generally after several more weeks thinking about it more? The votes were fairly one direction to include the pipe and wall boosting and CI1 wall jump as Normal route. The only major development since then on MC2 is Scoubs improved strat without pipe boosting which is interesting. What would be the difference there between the two? MC3 and MC4 otherwise have been the only other places where something has been improved with the pipe or wall boosting.

I would need to get Alex to adjust the Choco Island SC pages so the times there would be combined into the main charts. Then no other charts are needed beyond that if the above is done.

Perhaps we can agree a closing week or month if anyone else wants to test the routes further before we do any changes so we dont suddenly want to change our minds again. I remmeber on the CI1 topic you agreed on a long trial period, even if it is a year. I dont think wel need that long but it is worth checking thoroughly first what we are going to do.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 03/10/17 at 05:45:40

Well on CI1 we also need to resolve the prolongued wall-ride boost topic actually, which is still a different question altogether and people might be more resistant towards that one (from what I've gauged).

But the wall/pipe boosting issue received such a one sided vote that perhaps we can go ahead with already adding those times soon-ish?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Fabrice Baro on 03/10/17 at 07:16:45

Yes, I'm still comfortable with allowing the pipe boosting. In discussions elsewhere on this board and the French one, it seems most people (if not all) are comfortable as well.

The only person who would be slighted by this would be Chris Wild: I believe he had tried this strat a few years ago, and it was disallowed. Was it a WR? If yes, could the mkwrs page be adjusted?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 03/10/17 at 07:18:21

It was a WR-tie I believe, since the (s)mkwrs page does not report those, we're good on that account.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 03/10/17 at 09:10:14

Ok maybe we can set a closing month on this. At least for the pipe boosting and wall jumps so any last testing can be done.

Perhaps the prolonged wall boosting, (is it only possible on CI1 where it would gain any time?) could go in under the trick glitch if it is not favoured. That may need some separate discussion though?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Lafungo on 03/10/17 at 16:51:22

0C2635222B470 wrote:

It was a WR-tie I believe, since the (s)mkwrs page does not report those, we're good on that account.

For now... [smiley=ninja.gif]

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 03/11/17 at 02:14:35

^Nice. :)

72404C48210 wrote:

Perhaps the prolonged wall boosting, (is it only possible on CI1 where it would gain any time?) could go in under the trick glitch if it is not favoured. That may need some separate discussion though?

I think CI1 only, but who knows. I agree, it'd need a separate discussion.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 03/11/17 at 02:18:57

44767A7E170 wrote:

Maybe we could discuss if Scoub posted his video :(

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 03/11/17 at 02:48:39

Well, yeah, but in principle a video of the strat is already out there (GP):

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9rZ_Pnt4qs[/media]

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 03/11/17 at 07:09:45

Yeh it should be the same thing then as I remember from what he one on GP. How may other places where it would definitely save time or is it only CI1. I can only think of there for now due to the large mud section. Can other tracks be thoroughly tested to see if this is an excusive strat for CI1 only?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Alicia Kart on 03/11/17 at 17:02:54

If we didn't go for LB, MC2 could have been a good track for it, for flap as for 5-laps ! ^^ About CI2, the boost can stand until the finish line (with the help of releasing gas). So I don't think we can find another track for this strat.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 05/14/17 at 06:48:04

So, shall we decide a closing week for the poll about pipeboosting?
It's been almost 4 months already ...

(CI1 needing more discussions it seems)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Aron Langerak on 05/14/17 at 13:45:01

The closing week should be the week that you beat Karel for #1 :) You don't wanna be the champ by this stuff do you? ::)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 05/14/17 at 17:18:49

1B2B273D0A480 wrote:

So, shall we decide a closing week for the poll about pipeboosting?
It's been almost 4 months already ...

(CI1 needing more discussions it seems)

Perhaps a closing month / date would be good idea, I think CI1 discussions should be finalised at the same time then all of it can be sorted in one go. Therefore we need to allow enough time for that.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 05/15/17 at 04:05:55

I believe a new poll is needed to gauge the verdict of the community on the extended wallride boost.

We know what the opinions are on the CI1 wall-jump SC (17 vs 9) and the pipe-tick boosts (20 vs 5!), but I feel the debate about whether or not to allow the extended wall boost is a separate one.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Fabrice Baro on 05/15/17 at 04:43:11

072D3E29204C0 wrote:

I believe a new poll is needed to gauge the verdict of the community on the extended wallride boost.

+1.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sumner21 on 07/16/17 at 06:58:51

Did there end up being an answer about these techniques?
Just read thru and I find it very suprising you don't have a completely open category where anything goes at all.
I understand the crazy effort to achieve these times but if someone is willing to put in the effort they should get the reward of having their time ranked, even if most people never even try (or like) the technique.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/16/17 at 11:59:07

6D4B53505B4C0C0F3E0 wrote:

There are the trick charts for the "anything goes" in regards to trick strategies. However a full decision wasnt made as we wanted players to take their time to think about it as there were a few different strategies on the table. Hopefully we can come to a smart decision soon. We will discuss at CDM as it is a good opportunity with a lot of us there, hopefully we can come to a decision shortly after.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 07/18/17 at 02:16:28

lol so all those discussions + polls made no sense since we just had to wait for CDM to discuss altogether about a topic that's been brought up half a year ago. What a joke.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/18/17 at 03:01:08

This Time Trial ranking system has been going for over 15 years, there is no rush Mario. :)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/18/17 at 03:30:16

6B47544F491E10260 wrote:

lol so all those discussions + polls made no sense since we just had to wait for CDM to discuss altogether about a topic that's been brought up half a year ago. What a joke.

The polls and early discussions were correct to have as it has allowed us to think about the subject in advance and take considerable time on it. I asked Scoub and any others to test the strats further to make sure there were no other variations that we discover later after rushing to make a decision and have to change things yet again in another discussion. So nothing has gone to waste with the discussions before. There was no further feedback since, and then I know we parked the subject for a little while; I don't want it left for another year / two / more either.

It was never a plan to wait for CDM, but I just thought the other day, conveniently since we are all gona be together in person (and it is only a 4 weeks away) it wouldnt be a bad idea at all to have a final agreement on what we want while there. Rather than chasing many players up again to read the forum which might take a week or two if people are busy. I dont mind either way, but just thought it would be a good suggestion. Then I can get implementations done afterwards for whatever is required.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 07/18/17 at 03:47:17

290310070E620 wrote:

This Time Trial ranking system has been going for over 15 years, there is no rush Mario. :)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/18/17 at 04:05:32

4965766D6B3C32040 wrote:

[quote author=290310070E620 link=1485367413/50#54 date=1500375668]This Time Trial ranking system has been going for over 15 years, there is no rush Mario. :)

I'm not mentioning or criticizing any rush but the fact we've been discussing that stuff for months, without knowing what the current real rankings are, and are gonna keep on talking on this… at CDM, where you can find the same involved players as on this message board (some of them not even included). Nothing has been decided yet now that you've passed me on both rakings and I don't see good reasons for delaying a decision since there's no need to wait anymore. What's gonna happen at CDM then? We will discuss, give the same arguments, and Sami will discover that "oh that's nice everyone thinks the same as on the MB" ? Sorry for finding this ridiculous but I have the right (and arguments) to find it is.

(by the way, will those strats be allowed at CDM? lol)[/quote]

Yes we dont have to talk at CDM at all, yes we can decide it all here. But think of it as a last check, we can say when at CDM the results were mostly in this direction or that direction for the strats. Are we still happy with this overall or does anyone have anything else to suggest? If everyone is still in line with their decisions from earlier in the year then fine.

I am 110% happy to agree to do the discussion here, it was just a suggestion about having a last chat at CDM. Suggestion means we dont have to do it if it is not necessary, so dont worry!! :) . But if players want to make any last statements here, it might take a week or two for them to get back, then by the time implementations are done by Alex it could take another week or two after that at least anyway which would bring us to CDM time.

Based on the polls done it looks like:

CI1 wall-jump and NBT = Fine to move to Non-Shortcut main ranking

Pipe and Wall boosts = Fine to make Non-Shortcut main ranking

Extended wall ride boost = Make this is shortcut / glitch / trick

The extended wall ride boost was the one that we were least sure of, i think some players wanted all strats allowed, or the pipe /wall strats but not that extended wall boost one. If no one wants to discuss that any further we can decide upon the above?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/18/17 at 06:28:06

71434F4B220 wrote:

Based on the polls done it looks like:

CI1 wall-jump and NBT = Fine to move to Non-Shortcut main ranking

Pipe and Wall boosts = Fine to make Non-Shortcut main ranking

Extended wall ride boost = Make this is shortcut / glitch / trick

This indeed seems to be the consensus.
Unlike Guillaume, I don't think discussing it for one last time at CDM is a ridiculous idea, though I would agree with him that it's very unlikely to change the final outcome.

Oh and I'm pretty sure all should be (is!) allowed for using in CDM competition. With the exception maybe of the extended wall boost at CI1 final lap in TT? I know for a fact it's allowed in GP at CDM, so why not in TT? You'd have to be a little bit crazy to take that amount of risk right at the end anyway. ::)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/18/17 at 06:37:04

7C5645525B370 wrote:

[quote author=71434F4B220 link=1485367413/50#57 date=1500379532]

Based on the polls done it looks like:

CI1 wall-jump and NBT = Fine to move to Non-Shortcut main ranking

Pipe and Wall boosts = Fine to make Non-Shortcut main ranking

Extended wall ride boost = Make this is shortcut / glitch / trick

This indeed seems to be the consensus.
Unlike Guillaume, I don't think discussing it for one last time at CDM is a ridiculous idea, though I would agree with him that it's very unlikely to change the final outcome. [/quote]

Fair enough, its not meant to change any outcome, just that we could all chat together. Then again when we are at CDM we probably want to make the most of enjoying every moment that week, as it is rare that we have everyone together. We probably dont want to spend long time discussing stuff that we can do elsewhere. So ok, lets just sort things out here then.

Focusing on the extended wall ride boost.. Can it be done anywhere else where it may save time or was it exclusively useful only on CI1? Again seeking Scoub's expertise here :)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sumner21 on 07/18/17 at 06:37:56

Could the wall bumping be used along the inside wall of the start/finish straight on MC4?
I assume it requires being offroad? If not surely BC1 and BC2 have some opportunities on long straights

Sami's idea of a discussion at CDM i think is great since if you have a strong opinion already well fine but maybe some people like me can become a bit better informed
I would think that you really need to allow anything except finish line tricks since only these really disrespect the track but I have such limited knowledge.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/18/17 at 06:57:30

The extended wallboost decreases the speedloss when traveling really long portions of off-road, but you still lose speed. Therefore it only wins time on CI1 I would say, as it has a really long portion of off-roading. It would win time on MC2 as well, if we did not already have the much better long boost to cover that section. I can't envision it winning time on MC4.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/18/17 at 10:43:52

4F65766168040 wrote:

Oh and I'm pretty sure all should be (is!) allowed for using in CDM competition. With the exception maybe of the extended wall boost at CI1 final lap in TT? I know for a fact it's allowed in GP at CDM, so why not in TT? You'd have to be a little bit crazy to take that amount of risk right at the end anyway. ::)

Already did this in 2016 tho...
Just saying.

And for the ci1 wall SC , don't forget that if extended wall boost is forbidden, I'm against allowing wall jump. Which make the poll outcome a little less one sided.

So the consensus seems right for mc3/4 but not yet clear for ci1

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/18/17 at 11:00:31

That would still make it 17 vs 10 but indeed a little less one sided.

So your 56"61 was with extended wallboost ending? [smiley=ninja.gif] You might crush the Championship Record this year if you can pull it off consistently. I found that extremely hard to do (in GP), one miss-timed bounce or gas press and you're toast. [smiley=engel017.gif]

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/18/17 at 11:30:17

02283B2C25490 wrote:

You might crush the Championship Record this year if you can pull it off consistently.

It only wins time on last lap.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/18/17 at 11:31:35

I know, but to realistically attempt it in last lap for a CDM 1-try you need to be able to make it work somewhat consistently. I can't get that done at all is what I mean. :P

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Dan H on 07/18/17 at 21:24:17

If wall jumps are allowed, then I can't wait to break blocks on GVs to get flap times!

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/18/17 at 23:20:16

1F3B3C3C37011C1D052633520 wrote:

If wall jumps are allowed, then I can't wait to break blocks on GVs to get flap times!

Do you mean the wall riding or just the wall jump only?

If it was the latter, breaking blocks was always banned on GVs as it was changing the shape of the inner part of the course. VL blocks being an exception as they are in a part of the track where they could be hit by accident on driving anyway. The CI1 wall jump just gets you over a wall without touching anything apart from the bump that is placed there so that is different matter. That said you can do the trick times on GVs breaking blocks but the lap skip tricks are faster anyway.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/19/17 at 03:18:13

I think Dan was just being a wind-up merchant Sami :)
Pretty sure a poll would blow the proposition of allowing that for GV flaps away by a crushing margin.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Dan H on 07/19/17 at 23:07:02

KVD is mostly correct. As i mentioned in the other topic, I don't see how using a natural part of the track to hop over an intended obstacle (CI1) is much different from doing away with blocks that the game allows to be broken, also a natural aspect of the track, and then hopping over what used to be an intended obstacle (GVs). I realize I'm kinda just playing Devil's Advocate here, but the reasoning is valid nonetheless.

The counter argument, of which I am aware, is that the GV strats can't be used for 5lap attempts, similar to the IB on MC2. The CI1 strat, however, can optimize 5lap and flap attempts.

Another argument opposing allowing the CI1 hop is just to look at the game's immediate successor. MK64 has separate SC charts so why would SMK be different? I see CI1's wall hop as analogous to Wario Stadium's wall hop. Both use a natural part of the track to cut intended obstacles, but MK64 has resolved the issue by calling it SC even though you really don't have to glitch the game as you would on other tracks (TT, DKJP, RRa). The major difference between the two games is that MK64 has an abundance of SCs but SMK doesn't.

I acknowledge that the guys that have been part of this community since the dawn of time will be the main drivers of this discussion/decision, and that's the way it should be. But I hope the reasoning of this schmuck that's been here 11 years gets its due diligence.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/20/17 at 01:00:52

You make a whole lot of sense of course Dan. But if we'd have to allow both the GV block breaking and CI1 wall-hop just to make the rules consistent, I would instantly change my vote to keep both prohibited.

As it stands, I have a lot less problems with allowing the CI1 wall thing. The strat that is currently allowed skips a small portion of that same wall anyway. It sort of feels more natural to just allow that jump, as we've been doing it in CDM competition and GP for years already as well.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/20/17 at 01:18:56

0C2635222B470 wrote:

strat that is currently allowed as we've been doing it in CDM competition and GP for years already as well.

Same for extended wall boost tho ::)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/20/17 at 01:25:50

It is lucky i suppose that we dont have Mushrooms on TT otherwise it would get very over-complicated like with MKSC. At least with CI1 there is just a wall hop cutting a small corner, which if compared to MK64, you can say it is a very very tiny bit similar Yoshi Valley's hairpin cut. And neither are like the lap skip tricks at all. The WS wall hop involves bouncing into it to propel you over, whereas a bump is there on CI1 allowing you to clear it by the road's design. We will never have a perfect case, but we should just go with the votes for now as they were clearly in those directions.

So are we ok to make the amendments now? If yes;

1. I will ask Alex to do a small amendment to CI1 Shortcut chart, to call it 'CI1 Wall Ride'

2. Players times existing within the CI1 shortcut charts currently can be updated into the main chart

3. Players with any wall boost / pipe boost times on MC2 / MC3 / MC4 can submit them.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/20/17 at 01:28:44

07373B2116540 wrote:

[quote author=0C2635222B470 link=1485367413/50#70 date=1500541252]strat that is currently allowed as we've been doing it in CDM competition and GP for years already as well.

Same for extended wall boost tho ::)[/quote]

And feather jumps on BC2 Lava and RR darkness which are not in the Open section for GP site, but we do them at CDM. We allow more of the shortcuts there that are not lap skip tricks but still SCs. So maybe CDM should be kept a bit separate in that sense.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/20/17 at 11:09:11

Agreed @ Sami, with both posts actually

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 07/20/17 at 11:57:29

5765696D040 wrote:

Please allow all of this asap, my AF's too close from Karel's as long as the pipeboost PRs are not on the charts, and I don't want to feel the need to pass him before CDM. :-[

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by PEG on 07/20/17 at 13:29:15

6C484F4F44726F6E765540210 wrote:

The counter argument, of which I am aware, is that the GV strats can't be used for 5lap attempts, similar to the IB on MC2. The CI1 strat, however, can optimize 5lap and flap attempts.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/20/17 at 13:38:23

On GVs they serve as track lining, demarcating corners. On the VLs they are obstacles that need to be dodged.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/20/17 at 14:32:49

524745220 wrote:

[quote author=6C484F4F44726F6E765540210 link=1485367413/50#69 date=1500534422]
The counter argument, of which I am aware, is that the GV strats can't be used for 5lap attempts, similar to the IB on MC2. The CI1 strat, however, can optimize 5lap and flap attempts.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Dan H on 07/20/17 at 14:49:15

0B393531580 wrote:

I still think a discussion should take place at CDM before the official decision is made. My guess is that this exact conclusion will probably happen.

IMO, the pipe boosts should be allowed as an extension of NBT, as should the CI1 wall ride. I think this is just part of the evolution of NBT and is a further optimization of the game's intended (or not so intended) mechanics. I argue against the wall hop because that eliminates an obvious obstacle in the course that was CLEARLY intended. The ambiguity after all these years of off-road boosting makes it allowable on the TT site.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by PEG on 07/20/17 at 15:26:38

53616D69000 wrote:

[quote author=524745220 link=1485367413/75#76 date=1500586155][quote author=6C484F4F44726F6E765540210 link=1485367413/50#69 date=1500534422]
The counter argument, of which I am aware, is that the GV strats can't be used for 5lap attempts, similar to the IB on MC2. The CI1 strat, however, can optimize 5lap and flap attempts.

Breaking the blocks on VL2 can't be used for 5 laps either, and yet that is allowed.

I'm a complete noob compared to the guys who have been playing this forever so can someone please explain why breaking blocks is okay on VL and not okay on GV for fastest lap TT? It doesn't seem to make any logical sense to me.[/quote]

As per KVD, VL block breaking can happen to a degree without trying, no matter how good we all are we still hit those damn things and "open up a path". On GP the CPU somewhat opens a path for you too so it makes portions of the track easier. GVs not the case there. It was something discussed and we stuck with since the very early days.

Anyway, im gona contact Alex first, please allow a little time, it may not all be sorted for this update, but soon as it can be il let you know.[/quote]

There is quite a big difference between hitting a few blocks in a 5 lap attempt versus clearing them all out in order to make an otherwise impossible jump for the flap. And the blocks that you would clear for the flap attempt on VL2 aren't in the 5lap pathway anyway, so that argument doesn't make much sense to me.

Clearing blocks isn't even a glitch/exploit like longboost, or mechanic exploit like other NBT, it's like the most basic thing you can do to cut time and doesn't involve anything special at all. Do you guys just not want to replay those tracks and spend the time busting blocks over and over again?

Honestly even if block breaking was allowed I would never try to do it for GV just because it would take forever to setup. Still seems like people that would put in that effort should be rewarded though, that's my only thought on it.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/20/17 at 22:54:44

Again, on VL the cubes are obviously intended as obstacles as you make your way through the course. Rather than making a specific yes or no decision for every individual icecube (and having to communicate all of the decisions over and over again to new karters appearing in the SMK player base), it's much more clear cut to allow all of it.
On GVs the tiles are deliniating the corners moreso than being obstacles that you can circumvent to the left or right.

In short, it feels much more natural to break a few ice cubes (which is something that will happen anyway unless you are a god / Neo), than purposedly cleaning the entire track lining on a GV. I guess you need to have a feeling for the game to understand.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sumner21 on 07/20/17 at 23:05:08

I basically agree with PEGs comment
I think that clearing the edge of Ghost Valley is no different to clearing VL2, obviously on VL2 there is a clear purpose to open up a quicker different pathway. I look at them the same because you are still messing around with a slow race time to be able to achieve a quick lap time.
I also would never bother with GV edges because its way too much effort for a lap time but I have most definately had a try at the VL2 jump.

Further more on the block breaking, am I allowed to drive around and break all blocks on VL1 or VL2 (mainly VL1) before I go for a standard lap record?
I ask because I broke my flap on VL1 last night and while I had not deliberately gone breaking blocks I had accidently done a lot on laps 1 and 2 and then I followed with my 3 fastest laps ever all in a row (I missed race time by 0.5 seconds so I wasn't messing around)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/20/17 at 23:16:08

The block breaking is not even up for debate at all though, that was an overpowering majority decision made well over a decade ago.

And yes, that's allowed Sumner.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sumner21 on 07/20/17 at 23:25:13

I have no problem with your current rules generally but I still think there should be a complete open category also (only finish line tricks outlawed).
You already have a few standards and as some have said already the other karts are much more complex with track strategies so does it hurt to have a GV lap board for no borders? or a CI1 with scooby bounces? etc
I think they should be separated away from the standard lap and race time tho

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/21/17 at 00:54:45

11372F2C27307073420 wrote:

Well for the trick / glitch charts you can do the Scooby bounces and GV non border lap driving if you want, but we didn't want to make so many categories to overcomplicate things. Im not sure if a ridiculous amount of players will play GV1 no border lap jumping. If it is very popular we can add another board for that to the trick / glitch section in future. But i think players like to drive as sharp as they can to the corners and compare times that way.

Alex has changed the name on the CI1 trick / glitch chart, so I am ready to start moving things over. The existing CI1 wall jump PRs will be simply moved into the main charts except for Scoub's as they are with the wall ride boost. They wont be listed as PRs though for the news update, but the ranking will be updated in line with that move.

Scoub / anyone else who has done them (Christian Wild?): Please could you resend any times you have done with wall boosts / pipe boosts to yahoogroups then i will collect them for the following update.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/21/17 at 05:09:00

Just send my NTSC NPBT PRs to Yahoo Sami. Might try to do some on PAL tonight now that they are allowed. :)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Firewaster on 07/21/17 at 05:46:54

What's the CI1 flap WR on NTSC with this new strat? Should I consider myself a former CI1 flap WR holder since I had it in the past but it was ruled out?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Sami de la SMK on 07/21/17 at 08:48:09

183221363F530 wrote:

Just send my NTSC NPBT PRs to Yahoo Sami. Might try to do some on PAL tonight now that they are allowed. :)

Thanks Karel,

From what i guess only Scoub did the wall ride boosts, so il just need Scoub to resubmit his normal wall hop without wall ride boost times if he has any.

Then the MC3 and 4 stuff. Didnt Chris Wild have any? If he doesnt send them by Sunday just in case he is busy, can someone forward them aswell on his behalf?

Then i can get it all done by the update

Thanks

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/21/17 at 09:17:32

Chris only did an accidental (I thinl) MC3 flap on NTSC with it, 16"61 iirc.
And I'm pretty sure Guillaume did the CI1 wallhop strat without wallrides on both system and now that I think about it Neo might have as well?

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Danger M on 07/21/17 at 09:58:09

I did CI1 wallhop, but pretty sure I beat whatever time it was afterwards the proper way anyway.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/22/17 at 00:18:30

14262A2E470 wrote:

Then the MC3 and 4 stuff.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 07/22/17 at 04:50:57

I confirm my only new times to add are both 5-lap and f-lap on CI1 NTSC (51"xx, can't remember, and 9"89).

EDIT: it's 51"24, thanks to Jérôme Coiffard who game me the info.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/23/17 at 00:48:05

71414D5760220 wrote:

[quote author=14262A2E470 link=1485367413/75#88 date=1500655689]
Then the MC3 and 4 stuff.

All my mc3/4 were already posted on yahoogroups a while ago...

and are on this forum and on the ffsmk forum as well.
http://www.ffsmk.org/forum/index.php?topic=2140.msg187239#msg187239
http://www.ffsmk.org/forum/index.php?topic=4118.1980

I do not have simple wall hop PRs for CI1, but I keep thinking it's a shame allowing wall hops and not extended wall boost.[/quote]

Ok you can add to this list a 10"49* PAL flap to CI1 ;) (done after two 10"51)

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/23/17 at 00:55:22

Would be interested in a vid, the best I could manage was 10"8x :-[

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/23/17 at 01:44:31

6A5A564C7B390 wrote:

[quote author=71414D5760220 link=1485367413/75#91 date=1500711510][quote author=14262A2E470 link=1485367413/75#88 date=1500655689]
Then the MC3 and 4 stuff.

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by Antistar on 07/23/17 at 03:24:37

[quote author=755F4C5B523E0 link=1485367413/75#94 date=1500800122]Would be interested in a vid, the best I could manage was 10"8x :-[/quote]
So play the regular strat instead, at least you can get 10"6x there. :P

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by ScouB on 07/23/17 at 06:33:35

1'27"52 and 16"89* on MC3 ;)

EDIT : 16"86* :D

Title: Re: Pipe Boosting strats (for Players Site Time Tr
Post by KVD on 07/23/17 at 10:03:38

4C6073686E3937010 wrote:

I know you're trolling me, but I had exactly the same thought. ;D