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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Super Mario Kart >> Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1485366979 Message started by Sami de la SMK on 01/25/17 at 09:56:19 |
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Title: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/25/17 at 09:56:19 Please feel free to vote here and discuss, although all the points have been mentioned pretty much. We can allow some time, no rush for this decision, so everyone is happy before (if) any changes are done. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/25/17 at 10:30:33 Before voting, Can we clarify if this would also allow wall bounces after the wall jump. (Known as Scouby-wall-bounces ::)) Like I first did in GP : https://youtu.be/3XPDCSMwI0w |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Fabrice Baro on 01/25/17 at 11:07:35 70404C5661230 wrote:
Does this work in TT? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/25/17 at 11:09:18 Of course it does, I actually did it at CDM 2016 one try :D |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Firewaster on 01/25/17 at 11:33:58 I'm sure it works, but my bet is it won't gain time. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/25/17 at 11:35:36 We'll see ;) My bet is that it will. At least in GP it does win time. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/25/17 at 11:50:02 I'm OK as long as everyone remembers I've performed the first sub 10" [smiley=evil.gif] http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1414676885 |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/25/17 at 12:21:54 ^Bitch, you didn't even give us a chance... Im with ScouB on that one btw. Im actually quite sure that it will win time. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/25/17 at 12:27:03 Why are people voting to allow this? Do you really want to have to play CI1 again? Did I really waste all that time playing CI1 to begin with? Hopefully nobody below me will use this strat if it's allowed as really don't feel like playing SMK time trials again anytime soon (if ever). |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Aron Langerak on 01/25/17 at 13:55:42 That's a weak argument, look at MKDD for example.. a guy named Mike Koehoorn is taken over the ranks the last months by his new boostingtechnique.. Now the retired players like me have a big disadventage on some tracks (especially BP lap obv). I don't give a shit about it.. I don't play this game anymore. My vote is yes defo! |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/25/17 at 14:02:52 Aron, Moll may not have been entirely serious. :P |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/25/17 at 14:11:49 Actually I was being serious. Seems odd to allow this after all these years of it being known and not being allowed, I could have been doing this strat ages ago rather than grinding on the old strat to get my current pr's which if this is suddenly allowed just seems like a waste of time. It's Aron's argument that seems weak to me as he is using a new strat in mkdd as an example, unless that strat had been know and banned for years I don't get it's relevance. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/26/17 at 01:59:50 On a serious note: is it me or are we currently discussing about allowing new strats on half of the game tracks? The pipe/wall hits can save time on all MCs and probably DP tracks too (maybe CIs, haven't considered it yet) and we're bringing the CI1 thing again at the same time. I don't say that just because I'll lose ranks and even WRs super fastly while I can't/don't wanna comeback, but I'm slightly surprised to see we're suddenly open new doors everywhere, lol. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 02:07:30 You're right Guillaume, we can't really oversee the magnitude of what we're about to allow yet and may regret this decision later, like with the infinite boost. ScouB is already talking about trying it on all the MCs on Twitter. [smiley=lolk.gif] Maybe if the poll does keep pointing in the current direction, we should consider a trial period of several months (or why not even a year)? At the end of the trial period we could repoll and possibly still revert the decision? I'm not sure how this would work best either, but I'm just throwing in my two cents. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/26/17 at 02:13:28 Yep maybe, once again I'm not against seeing SMK evolving of course, it would just have been more logical to allow those things years ago and not just now that many high skilled NBT players have retired or vanished. I'm not sure Sami would play all those tracks again, Alicia won't probably, same for Guilherme, Alencar, and even probably me. :-? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/26/17 at 02:38:44 2C0013080E5957610 wrote:
I would say we need to allow longer period of time for the wall and pipe boosts, remember the backup solution is to have them in the trick charts so we can still record them. But if we want something like that in the main charts we want to be really sure. Like I said there is no rush to decide this quickly. Everything can remain as is until we have all decided and agreed on date along with the decisions. The CI1 wall jump one is a bit more straightforward so that may not need as long to decide but i would still want to allow enough time. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 03:26:20 5B77647F792E20160 wrote:
I totally understand your point of view, and after that if Sami, Alicia, Guilherme, Alencar, and even you would not play anymore and at the same time you see ScouB, Chris, Matt, past and future players finally beating all your previous PRs/WRs, we could consider this is a bit unfair, but on the other hand that reminds me when I first joined the PP in 2003 and in NTSC and when I finally reached #6 in the world, and quickly! But just because I used like a savage all the new boosting techniques allowed possible at that time and almost all the people I surpassed, if not all, were in fact still into "the classic driving" (called now non-NBT), so it's also part of the game, past, present, future, and I'm like you I'm not against seeing SMK evolving but also if people decide to retire, to wait, or to continue evolving at the same time of the new boosting strategies, I think that will be a personal choice, unless if the evolution is decided to be stopped by a vote, or maybe if Sami decide to create a Super New Boosting Techniques site/category? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/26/17 at 05:31:14 For people moaning, it was the same when first nbt came off. Most records were easily broken and some legendary players did not play anymore (MJ, rub, seby, Jamie, Simon etc..) Still we moved on and authorized nbt. It is the same today, we don't have to think about the past. I myself already played a lot on mc2/3/4 with the previous strat, and could feel bored to learn the new ones and beat easily my old times. On the contrary it gives me an opportunity to play again on SMK and learn something new which is really awesome when you think about it If we didn't discover new things every year we would prolly all be retired by the time being... |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Aron Langerak on 01/26/17 at 05:35:20 I think me and others just don't ''wanna'' learn these new techniques.. but I have to say. Scoub is absolutely right here :) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Sami de la SMK on 01/26/17 at 05:37:43 083B26277871490 wrote:
Yes, it is down to the players if they want to or not, or have the time to play. Lots of players retired and moved on for various reasons, not just the strat changes. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 05:48:59 I also fully agree with ScouB's statement there. :) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Alicia Kart on 01/26/17 at 05:49:54 It's not the same stuff. NBT was instantly allowed when we discovered it. Of course, it took several years to find the way to do NBT boosts naturally, but it was never forbidden. New strats are part of the game of course, but the situation is different here, because we're getting to allow strats forbidden since 10 years or more ! Some decisions were taken, we played with these decisions, and finally we're getting to change our mind, maybe a way too late. That's why I can't consider it's exactly the same than new strats, and why I can't really be for allowing these strats (CI1 wall jump or tilehits). It's OK to find new strats, but I'm more dubious when we have to go back on decisions taken 10 years before, I really think it's something different. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 06:04:35 Although what Alicia (and Moll and Mario before) brought up is also valid. I guess this is why I was worried beforehand about the can of worms about to be opened when I saw ScouB's new MC4 strat. There is no perfect solution here... :-/ |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Alicia Kart on 01/26/17 at 06:06:35 That's why rules exist to take a decision ! ^^ |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 06:49:35 765C4F496E584B58533D0 wrote:
I understand, I'm almost ok, but if you look at this way; in every sport players and rules change throughout time even past rules forbidden to adapt to play in a different time. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Firewaster on 01/26/17 at 07:15:03 Just to clarify something, when I say I wouldn't play the tracks I dont't say it as a protest or something like that. I only mean I don't have the same apettite for learning strats as when I was Younger. I don't want my comment to sound like I'm butthurt cause people developed New strats. I am a semi-retired player anyways ;D |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Goomba on 01/26/17 at 07:27:31 083B26277871490 wrote:
Well to be fair it's only BP flap and PB flap ::) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Aron Langerak on 01/26/17 at 08:06:00 And what about SL? And yet to come ... [smiley=beer.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Goomba on 01/26/17 at 08:15:48 0A3924257A734B0 wrote:
SL is just normal A-tech. In fact, "TAS strat" and even going sideways is just a-tech. It's a strategy, not a "new boosting technique". Sure, it cost you spots in BP flap because people learned it. And I'm the only one using it even on PB flap. But is -0.3 AF really a BIG disadvantage? Besides that, comparing people finding and using new strategies after someone has retired to unbanning something is different. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 08:24:57 426A6A686764050 wrote:
Well to be fair it's only BP flap and PB flap ::) [/quote] Hey! You are the famous Mike Koehoorn from the Kingdom of the Netherlands (the future MKDD #1?!), what you are doing there is very impressive I watched some of your videos (just right now) but I see that you are already #2 in 60Hz congrats :o and can I ask you a question btw: do you have other new boosting techniques in your pockets but for SMK this time ^^ , wanna join the PP? With all your talents you could do a lot of great things, unless if Aron disagree and said that's a weak argument ::) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Aron Langerak on 01/26/17 at 08:33:51 Haha xD I was just trying to make a comparisation but as usual it's not taken too serious ;D But would be nice to see Mike joining the SMK-side! The good side of MK.. Tho I'm pretty sure he is too busy with MKDD and of course no offense for that! Now let's get back on topic ::) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/26/17 at 08:54:43 You don't sound butthurt Guilherme, you just sound old. ;) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 09:41:27 13392A3D34580 wrote:
ikr, Karel ^^ what we are doing in the present is like that our strategies created an unsolvable paradox... Motto of the day: being stuck from the past for evolving to the future [smiley=zark.gif] http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma9e4s9ilK1ru0u5e.gif |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/26/17 at 10:01:16 62485B5D7A4C5F4C47290 wrote:
This. Apart from that CI1 thing that should have always been allowed, from my point of view. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/26/17 at 10:17:08 I think I've come up with a fair compromise: Allow all these strats to be used, just ban the French players from using them. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Firewaster on 01/26/17 at 11:03:08 05272424480 wrote:
And this is how World War 3 started |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 11:16:30 113E2532203624233225570 wrote:
And this is how World War 3 started[/quote] The Donald agreed ;D 664C5F597E485B48432D0 wrote:
The only thing I don't get it Alicia is where is the poll saying that was forbidden? This is what the official result made 10 years ago is telling us: [edit] Allow it ! 22 (64.7%) Forbid it ! 12 (35.2%) [/edit] http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170449735 Already allowed 10 years ago^ |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/26/17 at 11:26:28 08273C2B392F3D3A2B3C4E0 wrote:
And this is how World War 3 started[/quote] I wish I could put a heart on both of your posts. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/26/17 at 12:06:26 0E243731162033202B450 wrote:
I guess that's a matter of point of view, I myself see no differences between "a strat being unknown for 10 years, then discovered, and allowed" and "a strat known for 10 years but forbidden, and then allowed" (*) as I look only at the consequences : (*) : (I mean only if it make sense to allow the strat, of course Lakitu glitches cannot fall in this category for instance. But pipeboosts (MC1/2/3) wallhits (MC4) are really similar to any other techniques we came up with (boosts, FB, slides, A-slides, releasing-gas etc...) I can't see why the one mentionned here above would be allowed and not those ones, wallhits have been used naturally already in GP for instance + we don't dirty a lot more the natural path of the track than with classic boosts) - People will have pushed the "current" strat World Records very far - Once the "new" strat is allowed (unknown before or not) World Records are getting beaten (easily or not) - Some of the Karters that have pushed their PRs with previous strat are either already Retired or bored to learn a new strat. - But Activity remains on the website with people eager to push the new strat World Records to its limits, and newcomer learning all the new strats. And the circle goes on as a new strat is being discovered a few years later. The consequences are the same for both cases. It's more complicated when you go backwards on a strat though (disallow a strat previously allowed), as you have to know exactly who used that strat, and replace their times with old strats (like for IB) But we did it for MC2 IB, so what prevents us to allow these ones now ? As I mentionned before if we didn't discover (and authorized) new (legit) strats every year we probably would all be retired by the time being. If I continue playing SMK, it's mainly because I'm excited about learning something new every time ! I understand and agree that rules are made to be followed, but rules are also made to be changed if they are stupid. (I mean, at least considered stupid by the majority) I mean don't rules change all the time for any domain (politics and laws, sports, school, CDM ::), etc.) We don't have to be so conservative if it makes sense after several years that we shouldn't have disallowed some rules (or allowed some) in the first place (IB anyone ?) (and as mentionned Krysster I don't even understand why it's been banned considering the poll's results from that time, but anyway...) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/26/17 at 12:10:35 ^+ [ch8734] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/27/17 at 02:27:46 1525293304460 wrote:
Apart from this point I tend to agree with you. I don't think it's relevant to talk about something that should never been allowed that finally got removed in the end for good reasons in a thread where we focus on real strats that should have been allowed for ages. I mean, we know the pipehit thing for a decade at least, what were the reasons for disallowing it? Is it even written somewhere that those strats are SC? :-? The main problem for me is not about allowing them because I do think they should have always been. No, I just don't get why this had not been discussed years ago clearly, or even when Chris performed his MC3 forbidden PR. I just don't like the fact we suddenly decide to tell "yes, you can do whatever you want with pipes and walls" in fucking 2017, when a huge part of the top players who have set the most maxed world records in the world will not find the time or motivation to push their PRs again, whereas they'd have done it at the peak at their careers if they had been told they could. I know I'm speaking for myself but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Only 4 of the cumulated PAL/NTSC top 10 players in the world are still playing and they will get a huge advantage to destroy some charts. I find this unfair and not logical at all, sorry. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Dan H on 01/27/17 at 03:17:41 So if CI1 wall hop is allowed, does that mean we can take out walls on the GV's to drive flaps? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/27/17 at 03:59:28 Absolutely not Dan. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/27/17 at 04:12:08 But you can still take out ice blocks on VLs... makes perfect sense |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/27/17 at 04:21:59 Actually it does, vanilla lake blocks are meant as obstacles, ghost valley ones are track lining. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/27/17 at 04:24:37 I also put a ^+ [ch8734] [smiley=thumbsup.gif] @Antistar that I fully understand his vision. As you can see no matter who is giving arguments because everytime it's true, all of it, so even if there are a lot of questions here and there, have been discussed before or later, is it yes or no, is it a SC or a non-SC, is it forbidden or allowed, this or that..., so maybe can we now look at these things but just in the present day and focus at the final decision that we will make together? Can the people just give the Pros and Cons about CI1 wall and hit-boosting without talking about the past, because these 2 topics will serve to clarify everything, regardless the hierarchy of the karters! http://https://media.giphy.com/media/JjRLP2kOwmXNC/giphy.gif |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/27/17 at 04:28:26 05293A2127707E480 wrote:
Apart from this point I tend to agree with you. I don't think it's relevant to talk about something that should never been allowed that finally got removed in the end for good reasons in a thread where we focus on real strats that should have been allowed for ages. I mean, we know the pipehit thing for a decade at least, what were the reasons for disallowing it? Is it even written somewhere that those strats are SC? :-? The main problem for me is not about allowing them because I do think they should have always been. No, I just don't get why this had not been discussed years ago clearly, or even when Chris performed his MC3 forbidden PR. I just don't like the fact we suddenly decide to tell "yes, you can do whatever you want with pipes and walls" in fucking 2017, when a huge part of the top players who have set the most maxed world records in the world will not find the time or motivation to push their PRs again, whereas they'd have done it at the peak at their careers if they had been told they could. I know I'm speaking for myself but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Only 4 of the cumulated PAL/NTSC top 10 players in the world are still playing and they will get a huge advantage to destroy some charts. I find this unfair and not logical at all, sorry.[/quote] I understand your frustration. But what I was pointing out is that the consequences if the strat had remained unknown for 10 years and discovered just now would be the same. You would have pushed the previous strat wrs to its limits, then get retired and not feel like playing again with the new strats. So please stop pretending it is a different issue in terms of consequences... What I'd find even more unfair, for potential (now considered as) legit strats would be to prevent current active players to extend their smk lifetime just so that retired players are not frustrated... if you are retired that's not our problem, don't spoil our enjoyment/lifetime of SMK just because you are retired and Find unfair not to have been able to try the strat earlier, keep in mind I also pushed my PRs for 10 years with the current strat, I did not break the rules, but I'm not retired yet and don't want to be because some legits rules remain forbidden due to retired players frustration Sorry if I'm getting rude, but I find this so ridiculous... Also i realize I'm in the ci1 topic but I'm more talking about the Pipeboosts/Wallhits strats which for me are no different to any other nbt strat. Ci1 is another debate (but should probably be authorized too imo, just I would understand people saying we do not follow the natural path of the track by jumping over a wall) that's why I did not vote yet. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/27/17 at 04:47:14 0D2734232A460 wrote:
But they both breakable blocks, why does it matter where they are located? If nintendo didn't want them broken on GV's they would have just made them unbreakable. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/27/17 at 05:36:56 It matters for us where they are located, though it might not necessarily matter from the developer's point of view. Perhaps we should put a poll up if you're not happy with that answer, I'm pretty sure that one would get a lot more NO than YES (if the question is to allow it or not). Also, once again I find myself agreeing with ScouB, regarding the consequences viewpoint. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/27/17 at 05:50:06 I just find it odd that we are talking about allowing jumping over walls and pipe boosting (which probably weren't intended to be done) but don't allow something as simple as to remove a breakable block which is just part of the natural way to pay the game. FYI I'm against allowing any of these things, just thought I'd point out how silly some of the rules on what is/isn't allowed might be getting. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/27/17 at 06:19:17 So the natural way to play the game would be to break a gazillion blocks before every flap attempt? I'm not so sure. :-? It's barely acceptable as it is for Vanilla Lake 2 flap. If you make the point that by extension we should then also disallow big island-jumping, I would find it hard to argue against your case. That said, in the case of VL2 we open up an entirely new, otherwise unavailable (and very cool) trajectory and it requires the removal of a few key blocks, not shitloads like on GV. I would however agree that it's not completely logically consistent ruling. On the other hand, there is not much wrong with basing rules simply on what feels right to the community. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/27/17 at 06:36:35 Scoub: I'm OK with your statement. I guess the best answer I could give would be to give a try to "your" strats and beat my PRs. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/27/17 at 06:47:01 Well apart from mc4 these are not my strats, I did not even tried mc3/2 pipeboosting yet... But yeah if the strats are being allowed everybody can give it a try ! |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Fabrice Baro on 01/27/17 at 09:40:13 072D3E29204C0 wrote:
I tend to agree with Moll. I know this has been discussed at length. In my opinion those flaps should be listed separately because they are are not viable for a 5-lap attempt. Of course the grey zone to this option is the races where it's faster to veer of course at the end (only KB2 in non-NBT, but MC1, CI1, etc. with NBT). |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Dan H on 01/28/17 at 05:27:39 I posted my question about GV blocks as a Devil's Advocate sort of thing. I'm in no way in favor of breaking GV blocks for flap attempts (same argument against MC2 IB can be applied to the GV blocks strat). However, the argument can also be made that hopping over the CI1 wall is similar to breaking blocks on GVs in that you are cutting off a portion of the intended track. In my opinion, the CI1 wall hop should be considered SC, just as the WS wall hop is SC on MK64 (and about a dozen other shortcuts on that game). The difference here is that there is one known spot to do a shortcut like this on SMK, but several on MK64, and that is why there is a highly competitive chart for SCs on that game. The pipe/wall hit is just another extension of NBT and longboosting, imo. I think we should allow that. Oh, and this... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74oGgFTgpI4[/media] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/28/17 at 06:16:43 You're making a whole lot of sense Dan. Go play Super Black Bass or something :P |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/28/17 at 06:17:49 547077777C4A57564E6D78190 wrote:
Thanks Dan for posting your arguments on CI1 SC or not, I wanted to post mine in the old CI1 topic yesterday Friday as I said to Karel before (and MC2 too!), but just after I said it, I saw Sami creating 2 topics and already including poll in it so I thought it is more judicious now to wait a bit and let the people give their contributions and thoughts first, my arguments will be based on Pros and Cons with true facts instead of my personal opinions, and you'll be the judge after that to tell me what do you think about it now [smiley=beer.gif] 0E2A2D2D26100D0C143722430 wrote:
Yup! They are advanced new boosting techniques :) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Johan on 01/28/17 at 06:57:08 0925362D2B7C72440 wrote:
Apart from this point I tend to agree with you. I don't think it's relevant to talk about something that should never been allowed that finally got removed in the end for good reasons in a thread where we focus on real strats that should have been allowed for ages. I mean, we know the pipehit thing for a decade at least, what were the reasons for disallowing it? Is it even written somewhere that those strats are SC? :-? The main problem for me is not about allowing them because I do think they should have always been. No, I just don't get why this had not been discussed years ago clearly, or even when Chris performed his MC3 forbidden PR. I just don't like the fact we suddenly decide to tell "yes, you can do whatever you want with pipes and walls" in fucking 2017, when a huge part of the top players who have set the most maxed world records in the world will not find the time or motivation to push their PRs again, whereas they'd have done it at the peak at their careers if they had been told they could. I know I'm speaking for myself but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Only 4 of the cumulated PAL/NTSC top 10 players in the world are still playing and they will get a huge advantage to destroy some charts. I find this unfair and not logical at all, sorry.[/quote] As a non-NBT player, I'm not concerned at all by the pipe-hit thing but I 100% agree with Mario's point of view. If I had been a top-player a few years ago, had pushed WRs using the allowed strats whereas I knew more efficient strats but didn't use them because they were forbidden, I wouldn't agree with allowing them now. But to be more pragmatic, I think the main question is: why were they forbidden years ago? And what has changed since, that would justify the rule to be changed? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/28/17 at 07:09:10 I don't think they were expressly forbidden perse, we just didn't really know what to do with them (in terms of rules), so we left those strats be. Apart from CI1 of course, but that whole situation has always been a bit of a mess. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 01/28/17 at 07:23:09 6441464F402E0 wrote:
Apart from this point I tend to agree with you. I don't think it's relevant to talk about something that should never been allowed that finally got removed in the end for good reasons in a thread where we focus on real strats that should have been allowed for ages. I mean, we know the pipehit thing for a decade at least, what were the reasons for disallowing it? Is it even written somewhere that those strats are SC? :-? The main problem for me is not about allowing them because I do think they should have always been. No, I just don't get why this had not been discussed years ago clearly, or even when Chris performed his MC3 forbidden PR. I just don't like the fact we suddenly decide to tell "yes, you can do whatever you want with pipes and walls" in fucking 2017, when a huge part of the top players who have set the most maxed world records in the world will not find the time or motivation to push their PRs again, whereas they'd have done it at the peak at their careers if they had been told they could. I know I'm speaking for myself but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. Only 4 of the cumulated PAL/NTSC top 10 players in the world are still playing and they will get a huge advantage to destroy some charts. I find this unfair and not logical at all, sorry.[/quote] As a non-NBT player, I'm not concerned at all by the pipe-hit thing but I 100% agree with Mario's point of view. If I had been a top-player a few years ago, had pushed WRs using the allowed strats whereas I knew more efficient strats but didn't use them because they were forbidden, I wouldn't agree with allowing them now. But to be more pragmatic, I think the main question is: why were they forbidden years ago? And what has changed since, that would justify the rule to be changed?[/quote] What has changed ? We just all increased our level, and realized this was not just a TAS thing (only luck-based) and was just as any other NBT strat. Also not everyone was involved in the poll by that time, plus the poll results was 60%+ to allow it (*it being the PB/WH techniques), so I don't even understand why there was a statement that it was forbidden. Also there is no mention on the TT NBT website telling explicitly this is forbidden, so in my eyes it was never officially forbidden apart from some mentions on the MB, some PRs by some karters might even have been done accidentally with these kind of strats for example but just far from WRs. We are just launching again a discussion as our knowledge of the game is changing with the years and as there is in my eyes no real argument against these strat. So you are of those who want to keep a rule (supposing that it was an official one) even if everything goes against it ? What's your actual opinion on the strat (regardless of if it was forbidden or not in the past) ? Plus it seems you read Mario's post, but not mine comparing the consequences on whether the strat remained unknown for 10 years, or known but forbidden and now allowed. (Indeed for MC4 it was unknown (so not forbidden as it's not a pipehit) compared to MC3, but the consequences are the same for people like Mario etc. Why Am I in the wrong topic again ? ;D |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Johan on 01/28/17 at 08:14:49 I had read your post, Julien. The difference between the strat having remained unknown for 10 years, or known but forbidden and now allowed is that in the first case, current and past players play(ed) with a different level of knowledge but the same rules, not in the second case. I have no specific opinion concerning pipe-hits and others advanced NBT strats (I'm not enough into NBT to have a true opinion) but the beautiful thing with WRs is that they enable to compare performances between the best players through ages... as long as you don't change rules in-between. So, changing rules is not something insignificant and requires to fully understand why they were set this way years ago and why they now need to be changed. However, if it finally appears that pipe-hits and so on have never been explicitly forbidden, this would obviously change everything! |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Danger M on 01/28/17 at 10:52:02 They've never been explicitly forbidden from what I know, but I was under the general assumption (but may be wrong) that people didn't want them (from the comments when the Japanese vid showed them being used) and nobody submitted times with them (like Chris's accidental one a few years back, that may have been a wr at the time?). I guess it just takes 1 person to decide to purposefully use them to force a clear decision on if they are allowed or not to be made. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/28/17 at 11:13:40 062427274B0 wrote:
073E353F3F38293E7B7B7B4C0 wrote:
^To avoid the problem Moll explained, and probably to make sense, just saying |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/28/17 at 11:22:27 What you're suggesting there is far, far too cumbersome Krysster. Many people will use different email adresses by now or simply don't give two shits anymore. Even if you'd email them all as a courtesy, I'm not even sure if we want long retired karters to have a say in this. I mean no offense, but the flesh and blood of this community are and always will be the active players. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/28/17 at 11:35:40 63495A4D44280 wrote:
Ah? So, my philosophy to be sure is (maybe): 1 - write a new on the PP to join here 2 - fix a time period for the campaign (30 days) 3 - people discuss in topics 4 - 31st day it's time to vote: create poll! 5 - rules are fixed! Last: Democracy restored ;D [smiley=lolk.gif] [smiley=dankk2.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 01/28/17 at 12:05:23 I think Sami is handling it fine as it is. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/28/17 at 12:30:06 12382B3C35590 wrote:
the truth |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 01/28/17 at 13:21:27 6E44574049250 wrote:
That was just a proposition Karel you know ^^ I won't force anything to change, do it the way you want I will be fine because I know right Sami is the founder and owner of his site so to me everything belongs to him first [smiley=thumbsup.gif] , oh and just in case I'm not against the constitutional monarchies by the way ;D especially from the UK (#GodfatherSaveTheKart) [smiley=zark.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 01/29/17 at 01:11:46 By the way, if we consider the wall jump strat as legit, allow me to give my PRs (which might be WRs at the moment) with it: 9"89 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zywL_nf_eSc) / 51"24 (performed live at Stunfest 2015, maybe there's a video somewhere) / 10"35 (opener) |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by ScouB on 02/05/17 at 02:44:07 406C7F6462353B0D0 wrote:
Now it's 51"06* and 9"61* by me though. [smiley=nicewr.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 02/05/17 at 04:11:22 Holy moly...with wall bounce boost?? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 02/05/17 at 06:57:38 614B584F462A0 wrote:
I hope you are not referring to this: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XPDCSMwI0w[/media] This is also doable in TT NTSC and especially for the last lap, but as you can see there are 2 good reasons I think for we must not allow this strat: 1- this time it's REALLY a HUGE shortcut!!! 2- MULTI-wall-boosting should be banned in TT (unless if you want SMK looks like F-Zero X) The single-hit is fine (we already see some examples with MC2 MC3 MC4) but the multi-hit like the video above is probably too exaggerated?! |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 02/05/17 at 07:08:59 That's what I was referring to yes. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 02/05/17 at 08:24:50 I'd be surprised if ScouB performed a 9"61 with the "regular" SC strat. My 9"89 is not maxed of course but come on, that's a 0"28 win, so I guess it's another strat. If we're talking about the multi wall bounces that one should definitely be regarded as SC :-X |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Aron Langerak on 02/05/17 at 10:27:03 Lol yeah, that would be a complete joke imo. But I voted no for the other stuff too. I will accept any changes nevertheless but allowing this would be really stupid! [smiley=chairshot.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 02/06/17 at 01:25:45 So you're against the "classic SC" being allowed too? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 02/06/17 at 04:32:58 Aron is against everything. If SC was already allowed and someone proposed to disallow it for the main rankings, he would probably be against it too. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Fabrice Baro on 02/06/17 at 06:10:19 4F65766168040 wrote:
Mmm, usually it's the French who are like this :P |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 02/06/17 at 08:07:56 Oh they absolutely are. :-X |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Chrono Krysster on 02/06/17 at 08:14:12 654F5C4B422E0 wrote:
[smiley=roll.gif] [smiley=roll.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 02/06/17 at 11:31:51 4B6172656C000 wrote:
What if weed was allowed :-? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by DantheMunchlax782 on 04/15/17 at 12:12:42 Considering I might be joining the SMK site in about a month for non SC mainly it is good to know what shortcuts are and aren't allowed so thanks ;D |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Fabrice Baro on 04/18/17 at 07:08:46 6B4E4118171D2F0 wrote:
Hi Danthe, there are relatively few shortcuts in SMK, and they require a very high level of skill to be worth it (in time trial at least). In fact I believe there is only 1 track with a shortcut in TTL Choco Island 1. There are also tricks & glitches, but there is not too much interest. All those records are listed separately: http://www.mariokart64.com/smk/glitchcoursen.php That being said, the "NBT" (new boosting techniques (http://www.mariokart64.com/smk/whatisnbt.php)) allow to cut through mud, grass, water, etc. without losing speed, and are allowed and used in the main rankings. |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by DantheMunchlax782 on 04/20/17 at 12:41:32 I know the game well but I don't play it competitively yet. Where s the wall jump performed? |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Tradecenter7 on 04/22/17 at 20:15:49 Yo, Kyle Randol here. Eric Olden, Matt Ballard, a few others and myself are gonna have a little battle mode tournament now. Here's the link for anyone who's awake. Matt Ballard and myself (possibly others too) will be taking shots every time we lose a match. Enjoy! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] https://www.twitch.tv/videos/137460248 |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by KVD on 04/23/17 at 00:20:49 Haha! That'd become lethal very fast when playing against ScouB. [smiley=lolk.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Alicia Kart on 04/23/17 at 02:37:26 You should have taken too much shots so, by posting this in a wrong topic, and by only showing us 9 minutes of Koopa celebrating his victory. [smiley=lolk.gif] |
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Title: Re: Choco Island 1 Wall Jump (New Poll) Post by Antistar on 04/23/17 at 02:56:55 I'm not even sure I want to watch the video, the comment above is enough for me to laugh a lot ;D |
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