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Message started by Jazzy on 05/04/16 at 07:50:19

Title: MK8 Hacks
Post by Jazzy on 05/04/16 at 07:50:19

Those who were in the players page skype chat yesterday may know that there has been significant progress on hacking the Wii U lately and some exploits were released that allow, among many other things, TTs to be hacked much easier (using for example speed hacks). A few outrageous screenshots of cuts of 10 seconds or more on the WR were posted on skype yesterday. At this point everyone knows they were fake, but during the time I and some others were quite confused.

The fact that MK8 was hacked is not what bothers me. I knew that would come eventually. What bothers me is how many people on skype were and still are treating the issue. When the screenshots were posted, people were claiming things like there was a new glitch tech discovered that allows you to gain speed by ramming into walls and bogus nonsense like that, even though I'm pretty sure they knew the truth. Other people were confident that it was hacks. I (and probably others) were genuinely confused by all the mixed messages going on. If people would take this seriously I would be a bit happier.

What bothers me even more than the initial reactions is that some players said they were going to be hacking their game to try it out. Obviously I can't stop people from doing that but I can say that I strongly discourage doing so. No matter how well I know and trust someone, I can't have the same level of trust in them as I did before if I know that they have hacked their game. We play this game competitively and I for one can't trust people that much that are joking and fooling around with a serious matter that could be used for cheating.

It's only a matter of time before we start seeing new records that are hacked but have believable splits. It's far too easy to marginally increase the speed of a vehicle to save a few tenths, making even videos questionable. At this point there is no way I can consider screenshot/photos at the same level of proof as I did before.

Sure, we can trust people, and most of us here have no intentions of cheating. But that cheater could be anybody here and we may not realize for a while if we're not cautious. Also, there's a big disconnect between the western and Japanese communities and it often will be even harder to detect cheaters from Japan, since we often don't know the players over there as well.

Some people have said that the MK8 community is going to end up the same way as the MKW community did. I disagree. We know exactly what decisions were made in MKW and what effect they had. We can learn from previous mistakes. Sure, things will be tougher to deal with now that hacks are beginning to be more prevalent, but we can and should be smarter this time.

I already only play this game since everyone else does. If I didn't have the players page and skype chats to keep me entertained I would have quit months ago. If this community is going to end up as salty as MKW I may actually end up quitting. The players page has become one of the most important things in life for me recently and I'd hate to see it fragment.

"Big deal," you may say, "what's one person quitting out of hundreds, and he's not even a top player?" First of all, I probably won't be the only one quitting if this community goes to ruin, and some of the others may be top players. I may not be a top player, but trust me when I say I'm one of the last people you want to see leave. I'm hard at work programming the first refresh of the players' page in many, many years. If I am fed up with a poor community my motivation will be lost and I know I won't do near as good a job as I would; who knows if I'll even finish. I'm not threatening to quit this site or the revamp of it that I'm working on, but at the same time, changing attitudes can make a big deal.

So what should we do? I say, as much as possible, don't copy what decisions were made in MKW unless there is no better alternative. Hard rules won't solve things a lot of the time (at least that's my opinion), because each case is different. That's not to say we don't need rules. That's not to say that permanent bans won't be necessary here and there. That's not to say that we won't need to make many people provide better proof. But we need to learn from the mistakes that were made in the MKW community.

I'm not experienced in coming up with rules and decisions, but I can say that miiverse/photo proof may not always be enough anymore. Especially for new players and players that are known to have hacked their game, the proof isn't as "hard" as it used to.

I'm just going to say one more time that I strongly discourage people from hacking MK8, even if just for fun. The more people that do it, the more doors are opened up for trouble.

Let's be smart about things this time. The mistakes are already made in MKW. Those mistakes haven't been made in MK8. We can do things better this time, I know we can. It's possible to TAS or hack all the classic MK games and provide fake proof, but their communities are fine.

I'm just going to conclude by saying again that I wasn't happy with the response to this on skype. It has really been irritating me all of yesterday afternoon and all this morning. I wish people would be serious about a serious issue and that's why I'm bringing this issue here: to have a civilized discussion. Feel free to leave some comments and discuss the issue. I'd rather not have a poll for anything on this thread as this is meant to be a general thread on planning for the future; there are plenty of questions fit for a poll and they can be made in more specific threads -- but once again I'd like to hear everyone's opinions.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Mick on 05/05/16 at 13:33:40

When I saw what suspect to be a hacker on Splatoon, I knew it was a matter of weeks until public hacks would make it here.

It will be strongly recommended now to more systematically check ghosts of new times appearing at the top, especially if they are from newcomers or people who have already tried hacks beforehand. And to get really suspicious of strong times claimed without existing ghosts (a clean video of the run would be required then).

A good suggestion for players would be to always make a basic Miiverse post with a ghost submission, so that your friends can see and download your times even when you're not in the top.

Any videos of said hacks around?

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Cyndaquil on 05/16/16 at 17:29:39

Well this is a thing now.

http://img.prntscr.com/img?url=http://i.imgur.com/awjivwt.png

The ghosts are all different. One is an MKS lap, one is an SGF lap, one is a full rRRd run, and another has above max speed and starts before the countdown ends.

0A2C293C2B00362A313068590 wrote:

BullyWiiPlaza has uploaded a bunch of videos of MK8 hacking recently:
https://www.youtube.com/user/BullyWiiPlaza/videos

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by JACOB@MK7 on 05/17/16 at 00:38:59

So does anyone know how to crop images? Whenever the next TTC WR will be, I don't want any of that filth in the beginning of the video.

If I'm not mistaken, Starxlx should be able to get the bottom half of the top 10, and then Diogo/Sgt. can get the rest of it.

Edit: Well, this is just a suggestion to get a "within the game" top 10. In hindsight, Mindscarp should've been using a screenshot from MKBoards or something of the real top 10, both in future WR videos of a course with hackers, and on WW top 10 videos.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Darren on 05/17/16 at 06:48:28

I don't think hacking is the real issue here when it comes down to leader boards. People can hack times all they want, but to actually upload that time to the main leader boards? Absolute dick move. I looked at the rTTC leaderboards last night in disbelief, wondering to myself what the goal of all these fake times even was. Is it for attention? Are people just trolling? Also some of the comments the players made were absolutely autistic (moon's was pretty good though).

What pisses me off even more is Nintendo's inability to act in this situation. Sure they banned Ryan, but they didn't even make an effort to delete the times. Either the hackers themselves deleted them, or they were convinced by someone else. Anyone who hacks the leaderboards should be banned immediately. No questions asked. Ban them from online too. Online hacks on mk8 will make worldwides even more silly.

To all the people making stupid jokes about hacking, honestly fuck off. No one cares at all, so just shut your mouth, you're not funny and you won't win some sort of popularity contest. Hacking is a serious issue and has the ability to ruin the fun in any game. Just look at BullyWiiPlaza's videos. If enough people get a hold of these, mk8 online can be absolutely ruined. If you just sit there and joke about hacking, you only make it worse.

If you want to hack mk8 just leave it to regular stuff such as texture hacks, custom tracks, bgm mods etc, that are absolutely harmless. If you hack a time trial, don't upload it. And don't fucking joke about hacking. Disobey any of this myself and I'm sure plenty of others will lose all respect for you. It's not worth it.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Bramsil on 05/17/16 at 07:27:38

Stop the hacken a hate haking >:( :( :(

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by JACOB@MK7 on 05/17/16 at 19:41:39

The in-game TTC leader board is gone now. I will admit I'm a bit surprised it took so long for this to happen.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by DelYoshi on 05/17/16 at 19:47:35

http://i.imgur.com/GiEx0Io.jpg

It's gotten worse.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by ORANGE.exe on 05/23/16 at 02:07:18

78595065534F54553C0 wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/GiEx0Io.jpg

It's gotten worse.

It's a wonder why Nintendo hasn't removed the hacked times :-?

Yet alone banning those players [smiley=flush.gif]

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by ラサヤ Ζα€ on 05/25/16 at 00:37:26

ikr? it seems to be mostly on tick tock clock tho.... (for me)

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Cyndaquil on 05/28/16 at 20:39:41

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB3haewyJ-4

we're gonna have to be a lot more careful now that this is a thing

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Dos Santos on 05/28/16 at 21:47:29

if blade really hacks speed i don't fucking care he should be forever banned from leaderboards.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by JACOB@MK7 on 05/29/16 at 01:38:16

I honestly was suspicious of Blade. He knew how to hack, and he came out of nowhere.

He's obviously banned forever. Stupid ass hacker. At least he motivated J to improve.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by I¢£ on 05/29/16 at 05:08:57

We can't let Blade slide with this because it's the first time. We need to set a precedent for this game by banning him, we need to be as strict as MKWii is.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Jazzy on 05/29/16 at 06:30:55

686C2C393B345C0 wrote:

He's obviously banned forever.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by JACOB@MK7 on 05/29/16 at 10:31:20

7A514A4A497D7B08300 wrote:

[quote author=686C2C393B345C0 link=1462377019/0#12 date=1464514696]
He's obviously banned forever.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by TvK on 05/29/16 at 10:44:51

71753520222D450 wrote:

[quote author=7A514A4A497D7B08300 link=1462377019/0#14 date=1464532255][quote author=686C2C393B345C0 link=1462377019/0#12 date=1464514696]
He's obviously banned forever.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by TengusQua on 05/29/16 at 11:02:23

I think Blade should certainly be banned without question. There's no doubt about what he did: simply hacked the leaderboards and passed it off as real.

That should be it: banned.

At the moment there clearly isn't any regret and Blade obviously doesn't care much about this at all. But it could be a problem if we ban everyone forever. We saw what problems this caused on MKW. Just read the original post to be honest. I wonder if banning for a certain amount of time would work: banned for 2 years, then given a chance to prove that they no longer cheat on extremely strict conditions.

Blade should be banned at this point with no questions to be honest, and of course it seems like a pathetic thing to do right now. But I don't think the possibility of proving legitimacy in the far future should be completely ruled out.

But more importantly: why do it?

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by JACOB@MK7 on 05/29/16 at 15:41:13

2B273E322E232A232332460 wrote:

I wonder if banning for a certain amount of time would work: banned for 2 years, then given a chance to prove that they no longer cheat on extremely strict conditions.

I strongly disagree with this line. Don't feel like getting into specific detail.

18054E0 wrote:

[quote author=71753520222D450 link=1462377019/0#15 date=1464546680][quote author=7A514A4A497D7B08300 link=1462377019/0#14 date=1464532255][quote author=686C2C393B345C0 link=1462377019/0#12 date=1464514696]
He's obviously banned forever.

I wouldn't say "obviously". While I don't think anyone here would vote to not ban him, forever is a long time. There are former MKW hackers who play MK8 without a problem. We're not banning them from playing MK8. So I actually don't have a problem with Blade returning to a future MK game, where he can prove himself.[/quote]

And I agree. Should have clarified he's banned on this game only. [/quote]

Why should we, though? It's another way of saying "yeah, you've got a shot at cheating in this game, but if you get caught, you'll have to wait for the next game and you can try again". I'm in favor of banning people across all of Mario Kart if they're caught cheating. Heck, people in here have even come under a lot heat after it was found out that they had cheated in other games outside of MK.[/quote]

Fair point. I'm honestly fine with banning/not banning cheaters across all the games, though I kind of lean towards only banning them from the game they cheated. It doesn't make sense to ban them on a game they did not cheat.

I only know two proven cheaters that played another MK game: Jorge and Walter (Black). So if we ban cheaters across all games, lets at least be consistent.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Jazzy on 05/29/16 at 19:59:05

My opinion is that we ban cheaters -- either across all or just one game(s) -- for several years (nothing specific) and give them a second chance if it's later determined they deserve it.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Harmonia on 05/30/16 at 00:07:47

As someone who knows a lot about what is and isn't possible in the realm of hacking MK8, I figured it'd be worth it to drop a few things here. I don't talk to any of the people working on hacks and stuff since I only really care about modding (textures, music) but there are tons of videos from people like BullyWiiPlaza who show code progress regularly (and he just messes around with item hacks and other non-TT stuff.)

Thankfully, the only "subtle" way of cheating a time to pass off as legit is a subtle speed modifier. Everything else I can think of that is possible for anyone right now would end up being extremely obvious. Then again, even subtle speed mods are pretty noticeable by racing vs a suspicious ghost in question and comparing it to several others (which we did to expose Blade.)

The only way I can imagine someone getting away with a speed modded WR right now is to make the speed mod so incremental that you'd already have to be WR level to get it, but you'd have a slight edge. This means that we do need to be on lookout for any and all new players (or new players to a specific track) like some people have said. It is worth noting though that any future hackers have the choice to modify one of 3 speeds: land, water and air. So they could have perfectly normal land and water speed but gain on gliders, which would be harder to detect.

For reference, the only other ways to hack WR times would be very blatant speed mods, KCL mods I think (like replacing rSL road with MKS), whole course replacement mods (putting all of SGF's files over rTTC for example, someone who hacked a rTTC time did this), instant win, lap hacks, modifying the timer as you cross the line (which only one or two people know how to do and haven't released their codes for it), etc etc. All instantly catchable either by watching the ghost or racing it. Character/Kart stat hacks and the likes aren't possible yet as far as my knowledge goes.

I hope that shit like TAS codes and the like don't get developed for a very long time for the sake of this game's longevity.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Cole on 06/02/16 at 20:47:33

I made an MK8 input viewer using TCP Gecko dotNet. Basically the program works by reading the input values in the game's memory:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hxsZXy7fJI[/media]

As noted before, the ghosts are not like MKWii where the ghost just plays back inputs. In MK8 the ghosts are more like a replay. This is why an MKS ghost can be played on TTC or why a 1% speed increase ghost still looks normal. In MKWii these types of hacks would cause the ghost to desync.

I found memory addresses for controller x-axis, y-axis, and the buttons (A/R/L, etc.) during TTs. Then when I watched ghosts I found that the ghosts' inputs also showed up in these addresses even though ghosts are not input-based. I'm not sure why it works like this. My theory is that the inputs are saved in the ghost but aren't actually used when viewing the ghost.

x-axis has a value between -1.0 (full left) and 1.0 (full right). The minimum value for a softdrift seems to be around 0.4 (MTs will charge fast between 0.4 and 1).

There are two other oddities that I haven't figured out yet:
-The x-axis value is slightly different for TT/ghost view. For example in TT a D-Pad softdrift gives a value of 0.7071 (sqrt(2)/2) but when watching ghosts it's 0.7008.
-I couldn't find the y-axis value when watching ghosts. Or when using motion controls. That is why I made a 1D line for the input viewer.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Harmonia on 06/02/16 at 23:31:07

624E4D4466484D43445355210 wrote:

This is excellent work, soon there will be no more "is this run stick or dpad?" debates ;D

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by RRD on 06/03/16 at 03:27:15

012D2E27052B2E20273036420 wrote:

-The x-axis value is slightly different for TT/ghost view. For example in TT a D-Pad softdrift gives a value of 0.7071 (sqrt(2)/2) but when watching ghosts it's 0.7008.

I noticed that at times, MKTV highlight reels are off by a few pixels compared with the same frame on the ghost replay. Maybe you could look at the values while viewing a MKTV replay? They're the "rp…" files according to Harmonia.

Also, does the ghost file itself not contain information such as controller used, date set etc. like with Mario Kart Wii's ghosts?

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Harmonia on 06/03/16 at 10:40:03

707066220 wrote:

[quote author=012D2E27052B2E20273036420 link=1462377019/0#21 date=1464929253]-The x-axis value is slightly different for TT/ghost view. For example in TT a D-Pad softdrift gives a value of 0.7071 (sqrt(2)/2) but when watching ghosts it's 0.7008.

Title: Re: MK8 Hacks
Post by Jazzy on 01/02/17 at 20:34:03

So it seems to me that custom music and textures are becoming more common in MK8, and I think we need to come to a consensus that for the purpose of Time Trials, these should not be allowed. This has been debated and discussed before, and in general, most people seemed to agree that they should not be allowed. However, I know that some players, even though quite skilled, disagree, or aren't too crazy about the rule at the very least. The fact is that these kinds of mods are banned in all other MK games so the rule should apply here also. Although textures and music may not provide any benefit to the player (although can), it opens the door to other mods and so a blanket ban on all mods is the best way to ensure that all players are playing the same game. I'm aware these kinds of things can be hard to detect, but there is a factor of trust in the community and the rule needs to be there, so that if we catch someone using mods, we can investigate and maybe take action.

I'm aware that Diogo's MC WR was counted even though it used custom music. However it was promptly beaten by himself without customizations, and Diogo agreed to stop using the music. There was some consensus at the time that Diogo's agreement to abide by the rule set from then on set the precedent to not allow mods on MK8, just like MKW and other games.

Long story short, I think we need to make it clear that, just like all the other MK games, mods such as textures and music should not be allowed, to prevent opening doors to other mods, because textures with certain contrast and music with certain audio cues may actually provide a benefit, in order to keep the game the same for everyone, and to draw a hard line on what is allowed and not. Feedback is welcome.

Edit: I'd like to provide some additional arguments against allowing custom textures and music.

Custom textures can provide higher contrast than normal, improving reaction times or making grinding turns easier. An example where this would be very advantageous is the end of BDD, where lighting and low contrast make seeing the correct path difficult.
Textures can be carefully crafted with lines indicating the fastest route to drive on, so that players can follow the lines to improve much easier.
Music can provide audio cues that are different than the normal music. Music could even be carefully crafted to provide a "heads up" for paced based tracks. For example, being ahead or behind a certain point on the track when a certain audio cue plays would indicate that you should take a certain route. This could also be, for example, used to indicate when the gliders switch on rMP or rTTC.
Music can be used to time starting hops better. Many players do this at the beginning of rRRd with the original music, but custom music could allow a similar advantage on other tracks.
I have heard that custom music has an effect on objects in ED and rMP, but I have not confirmed this. This is something to look into.
The extent to which RNG plays a role in MK8 has been brought up before and not much is known yet. The effect of custom music and textures on RNG, if applicable, is also unknown, and it is possible that it could provide an advantage to the chance of certain things happening.