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Mario Kart MB
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Super Circuit >> WRL instead of AF? https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1384916684 Message started by .Hahaae on 11/19/13 at 19:04:43 |
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Title: WRL instead of AF? Post by .Hahaae on 11/19/13 at 19:04:43 I've been thinking about this for a while. I believe that it would do the PP good to have WRL on the site as the main ranking system instead of strictly Average Finish. For those who don't know, WRL, or World Ranking List, is a ranking system that MK64 uses. It incorporates AF, ARR, PRSR, Total times (3/5lap and 1lap) and a small WR bonus (if a player has any) to generate a more well-rounded ranking system. There are several perks to this: - More accurate depiction of skill within the rankings - More motivation for players due to more things to work for instead of strictly AF; AF graveyards aren't so scary/demotivating when standards & course/lap totals are thrown in the mix - One's rank isn't affected as heavily by others (still can be passed obviously, but the more factors make passing people more about skill and less about activity/inactivity) Now, of course, the system would have to be tweaked from MK64. This is because of factors such as ZZMT, strats that a top few use and many don't (Rainbow Road?), would have to weaken things such as course totals and ARR. With this system, the order of strength that the factors would be arranged in would something along the lines of: 1. AF 2. Flap Total 3. PRSR 4. Course Total 5. ARR 6. WR Bonus These, of course, could be reworked, were MKSC ever to have something like balanced standards, where ZZMT isn't an absolute requirement to get a decent standard on some tracks (see:PC (http://www.mariokart64.com/mksc/standardsn.php)). So my proposal is to have WRL added to the PP as a trial ranking. This system would be open for revision, should a better balance be found or if standards are ever reworked. This would allow the community to see it in effect and let them decide whether or not they prefer it more than a ranking based strictly off AF. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Lafungo on 11/19/13 at 19:06:37 Quick post to voice my support of this idea. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/19/13 at 19:07:34 7F5255465D545C330 wrote:
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Mick on 11/19/13 at 19:50:59 Sure, why not. As long as the AF chart is still around as an option, no one should have a problem with that. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Mr.Nosey on 11/20/13 at 06:53:54 Naaa, I never liked the wrl, AF is better. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/20/13 at 07:03:32 6E6A68667A746B7677030 wrote:
Why is AF better? I'm in support of this because I think the AF charts are unbalanced nearer to the top due to ZZMT - I think you and Alan for example are better than some ZZMTers in the top 10, and your overall skills are not being completely well-represented. WRL would still put most of the weight toward AF, but it would reward other areas where skill can reveal itself in other ways. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by thewebinator on 11/20/13 at 07:20:21 Though I doubt my opinion on this carries much weight (until I get back into the Top 100 at least :P), but I've always liked the WRL system in MK64 more than the AF system. It provides many more sources for motivation on how to move up the rankings when you hit those annoying AF graveyards as stated above, and I believe it shows a more clear and complete ranking of players in the game. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by flo233 on 11/20/13 at 12:52:12 no way |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/20/13 at 12:57:55 242E2D707171420 wrote:
Really would appreciate it if people would explain their reasoning for or against this idea. Also, this is currently in a phase of proposition of just being added to the site as a side stat. It's planned to remain so (if it makes it on) for several months at least, as the formula determining the WRL score is improved, standards are revised, etc. (And of course as we get a better gauge on the degree of approval/disapproval for making it the main ranking. Which is why I would appreciate explanations of people's thoughts on this.) |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by XolifreX on 11/20/13 at 13:15:53 Sounds pretty cool :) Though will the glitch ranking have his seperate WRL ranking? |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by flo233 on 11/20/13 at 13:18:50 Well, if you want a more accurate rankings based on "skill" you will have to include time of playing , date of the record and strat known at this point ,... AF is easy to understand to pass someone you just need to beat his time no matter if you beat him by 0.01 or 10.00 i have no problem to add this as an other alternative ranking like ARR or total time but in no case as main ranking. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Etch on 11/20/13 at 13:21:39 383838500 wrote:
http://https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiWDnzTurMqI8QTvroh3HQ0VbHkjECTMFU82mYQPINts06quky 646B617C6F69706B6160606B050 wrote:
Simple as it gets, fastest set of times ranked overall is deemed champion. It's also readily apparent to new players how things are calculated unlike some arbitrarily decided formula. 646B617C6F69706B6160606B050 wrote:
It was decided long ago it could not be strictly banned, it can't be helped if players refuse to make their consoles pro-zzmt. 646B617C6F69706B6160606B050 wrote:
It's not the top 10's fault other people don't play more. Not sure what other skills are being considered besides how quickly we finish a course or flap. 646B617C6F69706B6160606B050 wrote:
Like shitty standards? lel At first glance, including additional metrics will further widen the gap near the top from the rest of the field. Things like course/flap totals and prsr will have a huge effect for a shortcut wrl. Not sure what purpose wr bonus serves as having multiple wr's already places you in a favorable spot in all categories. Hell, why stop there because we could include gp times and coins as well! We've been using AF since the site restarted and it has served its intended purpose. I don't see the need in ranking players other than by their times, it's time trials afterall. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/20/13 at 13:41:14 Thanks for posting some of your reasoning - honestly really helps everyone I think better understand the perspectives of others. Also, let's please remember that I think all of us posting here are doing so with good intentions. We all want the rankings to be fair and in the best interests of everyone as a whole. I would honestly be very disappointed if the discussion in here escalated to mudslinging or threats; this doesn't need to be another Fenner case. We're all rational people. You explain to me a rational argument that I think trumps my current reasoning and position, and I will change my mind. I hope we all have this mindset to some degree or another. Further, we've got as long a time as we need to work this out. It doesn't seem to me that anyone has a problem with adding the WRL stat to the site. Let's just start there. Once it's up, there may be a strong chance that I'll agree that it's too complicated and/or not appropriate for the main rankings. I also read your post on the French MB *Pierre*, and I do not think it's fair to treat WRL as main rankings as some kind of disease that could be spread across to other karts, and it should just be quarantined to MK64. It's under consideration here due to arguments of fairness and interest in developing a system that could be more fitting than AF in determining rankings. It also may very well fail and should be regulated as a side stat. And if the topic arises in other karts, it should be continued to be treated as such, not a "hey, the other karts are doing it, let's do it too!" Anyway, just a few more thoughts I wanted to share. Edit: Misunderstood who made the thread in the French MB, my apologies. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/20/13 at 14:00:59 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
Not in agreement with you here. Some courses are overplayed, others are underplayed. Some courses also have more times submitted than others. Also, on some courses there are some difficult strats to learn, but the difference between bothering to pull it off and not could be a very small AF difference. This also reflects unevenly in the overall AF score. I think AF is overall a pretty solid method for ranking players, (hence why it is given strongest weight in WRL), but it isn't very good when scores on courses are not very homogeneously distributed and some courses are played with much more competition than others. 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
This is definitely a strength of the AF method, agreed. WRL shouldn't be too hard to explain though to new players. Simply say that it takes into account the various stats with greater weight on some than others, and to look at the stat pages on the left to see an explanation for each. 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
Which is why we would need to rework the standards and do so thoroughly before something like this would even have a chance at being the main ranking system. 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But maybe there really should be a large gap at the top from the rest of the field, because the players near the top may have put an exponential amount more of effort into their times than the rest. Regardless of how spread out people end up being, again the goal is fairness and a strong reflection of overall skill level relative to other players. 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
I know this is sarcastic, but it really isn't far off from the arguments I've heard from people who oppose equal marriage rights ("gay marriage"). "Hell, if the gays can get married, why stop there and also allow preteens to be married to people in their 40s!" It's not a valid point because our morality is rooted in reasoning, and the reasoning of our morality tends to propose that if there are consenting adults, they should be allowed to do what they want in private. "Adults" is included, so mentioning children is fear-mongering. Similar case here. Our rationale for the rankings is based on what can be achieved in TTs and TTs alone. Of course we aren't going to include stuff like gp times and coins. 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
Maybe I'm a bit more liberal in that if I think a change could result in something better than the status quo, I'll go for it. I can see the argument from contentment with the way things are. But if there's some better option, the way things are can leave me a bit dissatisfied. Again, none of this is anything personal. Trying to address ideas and arguments, not people and individuals. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Mr.Nosey on 11/20/13 at 16:39:05 267C27252F272D79794C0 wrote:
'refuse' is a strong word. 333C362B383E273C3637373C520 wrote:
Which is why we would need to rework the standards and do so thoroughly before something like this would even have a chance at being the main ranking system. 5903585A5058520606330 wrote:
Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But maybe there really should be a large gap at the top from the rest of the field, because the players near the top may have put an exponential amount more of effort into their times than the rest. Regardless of how spread out people end up being, again the goal is fairness and a strong reflection of overall skill level relative to other players. [/quote] Basically, all other metrics give stronger weighting to zzmt players atm. Any formula that includes them increases the disparity towards nonzzmt players. So, the obvious way to make a wrl ranking work is to rework the standards in such a strong way such that the higher standards have not much more added strength (i.e. large difference in value) between a decent zzmt time that beats most if not all nonzzmt times easily, and a very good zzmt time. Then after this give this new arr strong weighting in chart. Actually, after thinking this out, this sounds appealing though. Definitely do not want wrl happening unless we have a big change though, because it's just another pointless ugly metric. As I said, AF is lovely and simple, so wrl would really need to represent the skill level of karters much more effectively to warrant it's creation. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by shadow on 11/20/13 at 17:42:34 AF has always been a pretty flawed metric for deciding how good a person is at kart. It has a couple of interesting properties 1) Martin McMullan (who wasn't karting because he had died months earlier), passed someone on the MK64 AF charts, due to other people's movements. So if someone is ranked higher in AF than someone else, you can't always say that they're better than the other person. I could pass Matthias in AF without ever playing again. That's just the nature of AF though. 2) AF doesn't reward improvements where you don't pass someone. You can cut 0"50 on a course, and become "better" at the game overall, but if you don't pass a player, your AF rank will say you're identically skilled. Which leads to... 3) Improving World Records has no effect whatsoever. An ideal system would recognise even a 0.01 improvement as an improvement in overall skill and would reward that. Having said all that, the mk64 site has a horrible wrl formula, and I'd stay away from that. If you guys come up with anything smart though, I'd be interested to see it. [smiley=bath.gif] |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/20/13 at 17:50:21 Formula calculating it aside, (it doesn't need to be even remotely similar to the MK64 formula), adding a poll to gauge whether or not people would object to having WRL on the site as a secondary statistic, like PRSR, ARR, etc. currently are. If people at least don't object to having it on the site as a stat, then I'm hoping we can reconsider the standards for non-SC. Also, Lafungo did a preliminary calculation of the Top 20 AF using the MK64 formula, and all positions were preserved; I had a 5.8 score, Seb had a score of 9, Mick 11, Chris 12, 20th (Michael Fried) 20.7. If you want the full list, we can post it here. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Neo, the Roger Federer of SMK on 11/21/13 at 01:19:55 1) I think there is something interesting to underline: the title of the thread is 'WRL instead of AF?' while the poll is about whether or not people would object to having WRL on the site as a secondary statistic. This could lead to some misunderstanding: players being in favor of putting the WRL on the site as a secondary stat doesn't mean that they would want it to be the main ranking formula. 2) As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't object to having WRL as a secondary stat on site, if some players are interested in it (I mean, one more stat, why not). I'm not at all though. 3) WRL might be more fair/accurate to determine the main ranking. BUT I strongly think the cons outweigh the pros. AF is simpler (for newcomers, but also for top players: "what do I need to do to pass him before the next update ?" --> easy to calculate on my own), easy to understand, and reasonably fair. It might not be the most fair/accurate ranking of all-time, but it's defo the best one to use for this site (and for all kart sites IMO). Allthough my opinion certainly doesn't mean much on this specific board, I wanted it to be said ;) |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Mario86 on 11/21/13 at 03:46:24 Don't wanna sound as if there was a French conspiracy but I strongly agree with the two Flo's. 5E515B4655534A515B5A5A513F0 wrote:
This happens way too often in the MK community when people disagree on something slightly important... Quote:
Oh shit, American spies on the French territory! :-X |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Shock on 11/21/13 at 17:13:00 3733343F2E696F6B5A0 wrote:
I think the post I made hopefully made it clear that this poll was created by me, not Ethan, and it's up just to gauge whether or not people would object to even seeing it on the site at all. It's not a trick question. And I was thinking it could be easily deleted and replaced by another one later, if/when appropriate, addressing the question of it being the site's main ranking. |
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Title: Re: ARR instead of WRL? Post by Etch on 11/21/13 at 17:34:54 6F606A7764627B606A6B6B600E0 wrote:
http://https://i.imgur.com/VrVQQLl.png 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
It can't be helped if people don't play more. This is primarily the consequence of molding a broken game to often debated rulings for non-sc racing. The difference in strats are even greater for sc but that's the way it is there. This game also has the fewest players amongst the sister sites. I understand the importance in trying to extract data in a meaningful way but it's difficult with far fewer stats to work from. I felt this game has survived solely by high ranked players; so while this game may look awkward overall, AF is a pretty good indicator at the top. What is underplayed one day may not be the next. Shaping a ranking to match the site as it is now doesn't help in the long run. The permanence of ARR is probably more appealing than the evolving nature of AF or a wrl formula. And I'll be honest, a lazy guy like me wants to kart more than update so why make life harder constantly revising shit? 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
It can't be any worse than learning non-sc rules, unless you're bad at math. Not many new players anyway so no, it wouldn't discourage people from joining. It's just unnecessarily convoluted. 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
Yea, that was just an easy jab since I saw ARR being mentioned. lol I have been vocal about failed efforts to revamp standards since most don't realize the enormity of the task. Like you said, it would have to done thoroughly course by course with input from the entire community. This game is kind of an oddball and a one size fits all based on god times won't give us balanced standards. 4D494B455957485554200 wrote:
I know making one's d-pad pro-zzmt isn't like flipping a switch but people will ultimately stick to what they enjoy. I'm not trying to demean those that don't because I played non-zzmt style up until a year ago. The same can be said for shortcuts which involves a whole slew of strange tricks which I found monotonous at first but addicting later. 4D494B455957485554200 wrote:
The AF chart already makes no distinction between zzmt and non-zzmt so I don't see why ARR should. Again, this goes back to rule enforcement and the ability to zzmt on unmodified consoles. Incorporating charts that go about things very differently would only cause more confusion for what a wrl means. 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
Does this have to do with how people perceive the rankings? To those outside looking in, the AF chart does not make that readily apparent due to low activity but that's all the players we got. Standards however fill in the so called gaps balancing things as far as rank is concerned. We know what times are great, okay, or suck but not newbies. I think ARR does more justice than AF in that respect. I think a wrl would give the same picture so maybe this is really the heart of the matter? 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
Again with skill, nothing ARR couldn't solve. 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
Terms like "skill" are viewed very differently around here. I was trying to get at the impending debate over what metrics should be more important to a player's score. This is usually a contentious topic and there will be folks who will feel wronged in the end. I don't think people would throw their cartridge in the river over this but everyone must be in agreement or this will face very steep opposition. 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
Fair enough, that's why we added shortcut charts right? We can't please everyone nor should we feel obligated to change the site to suit everyone's individual needs. There could be hundreds of charts but we have chosen to focus on time trials in this community at large. How we rank players helps competition hone in on a couple areas to produce fantastic world records. As already evident, changing long time traditions here isn't always warmly received. Calling the topic "WRL instead of AF," like Neo mentioned automatically puts most into defense mode so some responses are not surprising. It's also unclear what the ultimate goal is and players are naturally skeptical. I also think it's important the sites more or less follow the same guidelines which makes the combined ranks possible. I'm pretty sure AF/ARR are the most revered by far. Unlike PRSR (which nobody brags about making cuts on), the WRL is closely tied to the role AF and ARR already play. We shouldn't clutter the site with charts that do the same thing. Without proper standards to begin with, how can one say the site doesn't display so called overall skill effectively? There's no harm in getting the beat on certain issues but this discussion jumps the gun by miles. 727D776A797F667D7776767D130 wrote:
That's what the players' page is about, working together to destroy world records and a place that brilliantly displays them! 8-) |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Stephen De Winter on 01/14/17 at 18:51:32 As long as the remaining or new standards are fair, I believe there is nothing wrong with having the WRL rankings as a secondary statistic for the PP because, they sound like they take much more important factors into consideration whilst still considering AF. If the Non-SC standards are fair which, (I have never been annoyed with on this PP,) I honestly can't understand why there would be any objection to having both a AF and a WRL ranking systems as, it doesn't hurt to have both if moderators are prepared to make the WRL too. Plus, competitors have different ideas about what they like more so, more people would be happy if both systems were around? People might not like one ranking system so they could focus on the ranking system they prefer to compete on. I speak of standards being fair/unfair because, on this site you need a Expert E or better in SC to achieve a standard. On MKWPP's Coconut Mall the glitch 'God' standards are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH slower than the glitch site records. I truly believe the 'Beginner' standards in the MK7PP's are FAR too tough for beginner level. I say all this because, I hope the Non-SC standards on this PP remain fair!!! IF the standards remain fair, my vote is WRL should become a secondary stat for this PP since it takes more statistical factors into consideration and players/competitors can decide what ranking system, (AF or WRL,) they prefer to pay attention to. It shouldn't be a problem to have both systems. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Lafungo on 01/15/17 at 09:02:07 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
The Non-SC standards are definitely not "fair" (aka consistent) at the top. I'd say anything above Hero in general is very uneven across the board. As it stands, on many tracks it's basically impossible to get a Myth due to how close the standards are to each other (you often end up jumping from Titan straight to God). Furthermore, some Gods are way too easy compared to others (see rVL2 and rDP3 flaps vs. RR and rKB1 5laps, for example). There's been talk of revising the standards due to how ridiculously unbalanced they are, but the project is currently stalled due to players' IRL commitments. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by kyleb30 on 01/15/17 at 10:57:47 FWIW (and I didn't see this pointed out anywhere in my limited skimming) ARR and PRSR are not factors in the WRL formula used for MK64. It's only AF, course and lap totals, and a tiny bonus for WRs (i believe it reduces your score by #WRs/32, which is essentially nothing as the point totals on the main chart are in the 700s). It does seem that at least the decision makers realize this as Lafungo calculated WRL spots (altough I guess it's possible he came up with his own formula). I personally like the WRL. It really doesn't deviate too much from AF, the only instances I've noticed are where people have an outlier in their timeset (http://www.mariokart64.com/mk64/timesheet.cgi?MatAbernethy for example). There has been some rumblings from a (seemingly) small minority of the community, but for the most part people accept it for what it is. The biggest advantage of WRL is that every PR means something even if you see a massive gap in times on the charts. This means that a .01 cut on Mario Raceway is worth the same as a .01 cut on Rainbow Road. This is also the biggest disadvantage, however, as it makes longer tracks more "important" just because of how much of your totals they make up. One more thing, and some people addressed this already, but I imagine the WRL formula we use will have to be retooled (in fact we've had a few discussions about tweaking it ourselves) to serve MKSC better and not have it be biased to anything in particular. I'm not sure what these particulars are, but just though I'd stress that it's important to consider. |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Stephen De Winter on 01/19/17 at 00:49:21 I can't contribute any accurate comment on the standards for Non-SC on MKSCPP above 'Hero' status since that is WAY beyond my skill level, I simply don't know what I am talking about. Although, I also cannot judge standards for any MKPP unless they are ridiculously obviously wrong it seems that, the lower standards for Non-SC on MKSCPP are accurate, (even though I don't have the expertise to know what I am saying with accuracy.) I still STRONGLY disagree with the GOD standards for Glitch Coconut Mall on MKWPP and the Beginner standards for MK7PP regardless of the fact I am quite weak at MK7PP. The standards inaccurately reflect the skill of the players in the bottom area of the AF rankings for MK7PP, (which is off topic I know.) Back on topic, I vote for both WRL and AF ranking systems for MKSCPP. I trust, the WRL system to be made fair in the end, once the balance is found, if it goes ahead :) |
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Title: Re: WRL instead of AF? Post by Etch on 01/19/17 at 17:05:57 Why? lol http://https://i.imgur.com/u2A37QF.png To reiterate, the combined ranks are possible since they are based on the same system, (albeit some prefer non-sc or shortcut so it makes less sense than before). 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
AF only compares the fastest times, seems appropriate for time trials. 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
There are still typos there, I've been tempted to correct them myself but no one cares or is too busy like Lafungo said to bother. 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
Pretty much, a few people want stuff and could easily create said chart if they tried. I'm sure if someone drafted something that would spark up some conversation. 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
This category probably has the least interest of all sister sites. I based most God times off WR strat so in that respect they are balanced. Some got broken last year but I only went out to Expert ranks because it seemed silly considering some times only take hundredths to complete. It should serve as motivation to attempt best strats to get a ranked time! 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
This is why the combined ranks look at AF and not ARR. 454253465E53581B52531B415F58425344360 wrote:
It's impossible to reconcile non-zzmt and zzmt times into one category. Maybe ask Hutch, smk seems to be doing okay with separate sites for non-nbt / nbt and with enough interest mksc could get there one day. 5A485D54530302310 wrote:
Reread the OP, this is what set people off I guess? Again, for a combined rank to exist all sites need to adhere to one system as main chart. Considering some gaps, I doubt extra categories will affect the current ranking but replacing AF...why bother? lol |
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