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Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Super Circuit >> Add Shortcut Charts
https://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1361926445

Message started by Etch on 02/26/13 at 16:54:05

Title: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 02/26/13 at 16:54:05

I've seen plenty of people express their interest for shortcuts but the only way this will ever build into something beyond the board is if they get incorporated back into the main site.

The existing site rules can be pretty intimidating and confusing for newcomers so offering shortcuts not only opens competition up to everyone but acknowledges the true nature of this game. Yes, it's ridden with ridiculous lap skips and glitches but the players' page should not ignore the fastest times possible. It's sort of our duty to make this place the best source for mksc so why not?

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 02/26/13 at 17:00:33

I approve of this.

+1

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Lafungo on 02/26/13 at 19:43:18

I think this is a good idea but that there should also be Non-SC/SC charts, as lapskips are really annoying and kill competition for many flaps (and limit some 3/5laps a lot as well).

PP rules has to remain the main chart though.

-Christophe.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Detective Spril on 02/26/13 at 19:49:30

597473607B727A150 wrote:

I'd agree with this. I'm completely cool with having a SC section if there is a definite demand for it :)

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 02/26/13 at 20:21:29

6C4146554E474F200 wrote:

Idk, my favorite system out of all the MK systems is the one MKW adopted (whichever category you're best at is the one on counted for you on the combined ranks) because I almost exclusively play SC in the older MK's.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Mario86 on 02/27/13 at 03:37:46

Well, my opinion about this is a little bit known by some of yours: I have a lot of difficulties to enter the MKSC competition because I disagree with many of the rules about what is SC and what is not, because I think there is absolutely nothing logical behind them. This said, I'd have prefered if all MK Player Pages had banned the use of shrooms and only allowed grass/sand/whatever cutting like we do with NBT in SMK — i.e short cuts (literally, I mean) that don't completely ruin the track and make the players drive it 90% as it was designed to.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Zwiebel on 02/27/13 at 10:04:46

Ban shrooms in all MK games? You, sir, deserve the award of the maddest guy in here [smiley=roll.gif]

I'b be all for it if it's split into shortcut/no shortcut.

Though if we get sc charts I doubt that Non-ZZMT Charts will ever happen, but that wasn't going to happen anyway so whatever.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Mario86 on 02/27/13 at 10:43:19

163B25292E29204C0 wrote:

Ban shrooms in all MK games?

Why do you think I'm only playing SMK seriously? [smiley=happy.gif]

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by F@nt0m@s on 02/27/13 at 10:55:06

I'm all for it as well. That's what I had been waiting for since I discovered and entered the PP! I'm glad it will now be established so that people who are still playing SC will play it even more and other non-SC players may be motivated to join the SC chart as well! :D

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 02/27/13 at 11:24:18

One thing that would be a good idea to implement if this happens is a "Classic AF Chart"; a system that only implements the 20 GBA 3laps, since many Japanese players only had interest in the 3laps (of course there would still be the main 80-time AF table).

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by TvK on 02/27/13 at 11:26:57

Actually, adding SC charts would motivate me to play SC as well. I never even bothered to try, because practically the only known time was the WR, which was always way out of my reach. So I'd say Yes and we'll see how it turns out.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by flo233 on 02/27/13 at 12:30:42

That could motivate me to play some MKSC again

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 02/27/13 at 15:09:12

Pretty warm reception so far! :)

Here are my thoughts about implementing it...

1. Everyone has two time sets, non-sc (current site rules) and sc (no rules).
2. When updating, times that are non-sc must be labeled non-sc otherwise get placed under sc only!
3. It's imperative we create a page listing and describing all of the shortcuts.
4. We should also expand/update the non-sc rules to ensure there are no doubts what is and isn't allowed.
5. We need a fresh new layout and color scheme to properly rep this shit!

This scheme has worked very well for mkds and is probably the least confusing approach to take for shortcuts. I understand there will be some massive ties but that's the nature of the beast. For example, mk64's FS flap probably motivated players into discovering a new strat to take the WR for themselves! If we ban certain tricks, we will have to police everyone and make sure that these rules are being followed much like in non-sc. The way I see it, the sc chart should be the option for players who don't want to worry about posting illegal times.

In terms of site staff involvement, the only extra work you have is select which times are non-sc as sc is the default. If a non-sc time is faster than one's sc time, it automatically gets copied over to the sc table.

If you guys are okay with this and it gets Queen Spril's blessing, I can go over this with Alex and get something cooking.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 02/27/13 at 15:25:20

What should be done about non-SC ticking times then (I.e. CL ticking, etc.; there are quite a few kd them).

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 02/27/13 at 15:42:40

Well, we could create several charts but those must be updated and proved even more rigorously.

Ticking is permitted, just so happens a faster strat exists on CL. If we want a sc chart, we should go all the way instead of creating a pseudo non-sc chart with more rules. At least for now, it will be interesting to see how a no restriction chart would play out. The door is always open for new ideas and charts down the road but I think this would be the first big step in that direction.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Lafungo on 02/27/13 at 16:24:20

I really think that if we implement Non-PP Rules charts we need to put both SC and "universal" Non-SC charts, where the only restriction is no lapskips. I really don't want to implement these charts just to have some of them, like CL flap, be completely dead. I can go to Cyberscore or VGR if I want those massive ties. Universal Non-SC also has a ton of interesting strats that are inexistent in both PP rules and SC.

Non-ZZMT charts would also be nice but they'd have to be a secondary site like Non-NBT.

-Christophe.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 02/27/13 at 17:04:02

Right now we have 22 tracks banning lakitu or lap skips near starting line.
http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1152268445/0#0

We can either build a chart around these tracks only or copy the other 18 tracks over to make universal non-sc. That is like mkds where we copy non-prb times over to the ones where prb doesn't matter. It sounds redundant but you want to look at the game as a whole and not just select tracks. We are still keeping the original site rules chart which means those will also copy over if faster than what a player already has under sc or universal non-sc. Trying to juggle three charts might be tricky but not impossible!

The goal is to make the pp the go to place everything mksc.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Lafungo on 02/27/13 at 17:17:47

603A616369616B3F3F0A0 wrote:

The goal is to make the pp the go to place everything mksc.

I think this is the most important thing to have in mind for this. As of right now, the only proper SC charts are on Cyberscore and VGR (and Mander's site(?), don't know too much about it) and the only universal Non-SC charts are the French ones over on mktrial.fr.

With this goal in mind, I do think the best thing to do would be to go with 3 80-chart timesheets as Etch is saying.

I also think now is a great time to do this, as the MK community is starting to get into streaming and getting more publicity. I have had discussions with people about the PP during my streams and they often ask about the rules and I have to say "the rules are the rules" basically, even though many people think that bans like RiR and BC3 are stupid. Hence having universal Non-SC would be a good boost in that direction I think.

-Christophe.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 02/27/13 at 17:24:07

15383F2C373E36590 wrote:

[quote author=603A616369616B3F3F0A0 link=1361926445/0#16 date=1362013442]
The goal is to make the pp the go to place everything mksc.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Shock on 02/27/13 at 19:00:49

I think I'll drop the hammer here and voice my support for this as well.

I would be interested in thoughts about modifying the main ranks for SC though - perhaps one that takes into account total SC time as well as SC AF, considering as Etch said there are bound to be some massive ties and several flaps that are literally one frame.

I'm willing to provide some feedback, support, etc. in a week and a half when I get past my midterms to my spring break. Maybe after we implement this successfully, we can keep the momentum going and have a revision of standards for non-SC too!

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Detective Spril on 02/27/13 at 19:28:44

3434345C0 wrote:

I agree here. This could also substantially raise the amount of players here on the MKSC PP if we spread the word. I've heard many people say "the rules are stupid so I won't bother" over the years.

Yea. I think actually having a SC section would definitely be a positive thing. Obviously the kinks of it all need to be worked out, but it will help with activity, and there is a lot less times police stuff to worry about.

Etch, if you want to work on getting it put together, you have my blessing :)

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Terrence Fenner on 02/28/13 at 13:11:05

that's a good idea. That's one way to make the Kart page as popular as MKDS/Wii/7

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 02/28/13 at 17:26:25

With Spril's approval now I PM'd my layout/design/specs to Alex. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

Once that is situated we can start updating/creating the content for the new pages.

Standards are easy but we will definitely need you for that Shock!

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by F@nt0m@s on 02/28/13 at 23:34:58

Great! Thanks Etch! :)

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by A Runnelid on 03/01/13 at 05:28:05

5555553D0 wrote:

Posting just to say I disagree with this. :D

Adding the f-lap times would give these players increased incentive to play f-laps and submit competitive times, at the same time including their times in one definite definitive global chart and ranking.

Otherwise, I am all for all ideas.
I would have posted a different poll question; no outcome would influence my decision of whether to actually play for and sumbit SC times, but I am very positive towards including rankings on the site.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 03/01/13 at 08:39:35

Well many of them no longer play and no longer even have the game and so they won't be expanding their timesheets at all.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Mick on 03/01/13 at 10:12:34

I may bother to get a SC timeset since I have now reached a great grasp of the all the driving mechanics in the game, and that most of the SC's are now fairly easy to get at least once.

3D3D3D550 wrote:

Well many of them no longer play and no longer even have the game and so they won't be expanding their timesheets at all.

> Implying they would bother to submit anything in the first place.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 03/01/13 at 10:34:42

The ones I have managed to get ahold of gave me permission to submit their timesheets.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 03/02/13 at 06:09:50

Before considering addition of shortcut times, I wanted to get some idea of how many people might actually compete hence that poll. I'm sure everyone agrees it's great listing these times in some form. If no one submits though they would just sit there and look identical to non-sc.

Just to be absolutely clear, what are we going with precisely?

1. 3 charts (80 times each) - No Shortcut, No Trick, No Restriction
2. 2 charts (80 times each) - No Shortcut and No Restriction
3. 2 charts (80 times each) - No Shortcut and No Trick
4. 2 charts (80 times and 124 times) - No Shortcut and Combined Shortcut

It sounded like you guys were in agreement with option 1.

I don't want Alex to configure something nice only to change it under some misunderstanding here about how we want shortcut times added to the site.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 03/02/13 at 06:47:04

I'm in agreement with #1.

edit: but for no tricking, would it really be necessary to have all 80 times? It would probably be easier to just have the specific courses listed but still have the AF include all 80 (sort of like MKW's nonSC charts), though many probably disagree with me here.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Lafungo on 03/02/13 at 07:02:57

As I've said before, I'm in agreement with #1.

Unlike Hahaae, I think that we should have 80 No Trick charts despite redundancy because I think No Trick and No Restriction should have equal standing on the site, and by adding No Trick in the same way as MKWii Non-SC, you're making it "dependent" on No Restriction, and hence giving it less value.

-Christophe.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by Etch on 03/02/13 at 07:46:00

The shortcut charts are also adaptable when set up this way.

It's entirely possible a new lap skip is discovered which would allow people to submit this to No Restriction while keeping their previous record which becomes a new rule there for No Trick. This is much easier than having to rebuild the charts each time and resubmit. Basically the same principle for mkds since we added non-prb rules where prb or shortcuts were later employed.

Title: Re: Add Shortcut Charts
Post by .Hahaae on 03/02/13 at 14:44:54

Got in contact with Su, he said he wants his name changed from Kiyotaka Umeki to Su, and that he will submit his timesheet if the charts are made.