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Mario Kart >> Mario Kart Super Circuit >> Mander caught cheating on MKW
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Message started by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 14:55:36

Title: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 14:55:36

What does this mean for MKSC?

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Zwiebel on 07/22/12 at 15:02:02

Mander is not on our site, so what would that mean anyway?

Edit: Oops sorry, I just realized there are some times of him on the carts. Well I'd say we ban him from our charts.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by KartSeven on 07/22/12 at 15:08:41

I know nothing about MKW : how many times are definitely fake ?

Does he want to defend himself and do some streams ?

And remember this topic (http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1200878904) a few years ago...

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Zwiebel on 07/22/12 at 15:11:55

644E5D5B7C4A594A412F0 wrote:

It's different, this time we are 99% sure he used savestates / rapid fire.

If you're not following MKW, a script was developed by Cole which can identify the use of Rapid Fire. Some of Mander's times show use of it.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 15:14:51

Yeah, some of his inputs show that he pressed the dpad every other frame (which is like .016 in MKW or something, I forgot tbh), which is humanly impossible.

I was also thinking about his SC MKSC times. All of them are 10x harder and 10x more robotic than anything he's done in MKW.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Zwiebel on 07/22/12 at 15:17:23

7575751D0 wrote:

We can't be sure, that's why we should remove him for good.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Shock on 07/22/12 at 15:21:59

Roy said he had an MKSC emulator in 2003, meaning it was possible for Mander to TAS his RR time for example. As far as I know, Mander might have done something as simple as savestates, but who knows. That's the problem here; if we are applying the same standards to Mander as we did to Fenner, I'd say Mander has blown our trust by proving to basically be the longest uncaught cheater in MKW.

I think we can't trust his times to be legitimate on this site and should be removed in the context of what happened in MKW.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 15:28:44

I'm aware of this. The whole wrvids page about Mander are his emulator times, which magically disappeared from Mander's rankings when some people (i.e Yazzo and a few Japanese people) questioned them. Then he magically reappears a year or so later with a completely new timesheet, beating almost all of his old times without ZZMT's, and completely robotic driving each lap. I don't feel like posting his GBA 3laps here again, but it's literally the same inputs each lap.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Detective Spril on 07/22/12 at 15:58:25

020D071A090F160D0706060D630 wrote:

I'm looking into this -- I unfortunately don't know enough about his MKSC history to make a determination that way, so if anyone wants to enlighten me, I'd beyond appreciate that. With something like this, I would like to completely know what is going on and what kind of player this is before I say definitely "he needs to go".

Just so everyone knows, I am the one who makes the final decision on who stays and who goes, although any staff is welcome to throw in their two cents.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 15:59:15

Read the post above yours lol

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Tom1 on 07/22/12 at 16:01:36

personally i've been sus from day 1 but we didn't have means to catch him and he does have skill as people have seen him "play live" with hands.

But this mkwii shit should mean he's autobanned from mksc. Thats what I was trying to implement with the other site staffs but no one really bothered to reply. ahem.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Nicola on 07/22/12 at 16:06:52

April, Mander is the guy who raced that 34"63 RR ex-WR with Toad. He also made many times, both glitched and non-glitched, all of them (if I remember correctly) with Toad.
He was accused of cheating many times, both in MKSC and MKW. Now it is confirmed that he cheated at least once in MKW.

I agree with Tom: my opinion is that if you cheat in one kart game, you must be banned from every kart site, as we can't trust you anymore.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Detective Spril on 07/22/12 at 16:11:08

1336253C05382E570 wrote:

I agree with Tom: my opinion is that if you cheat in one kart game, you must be banned from every kart site, as we can't trust you anymore.

I do too, but I want to know exactly what I'm dealing with before I do anything :)

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Nicola on 07/22/12 at 16:20:54

I agree with that even more :P

Do you need any other information?

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Detective Spril on 07/22/12 at 16:30:22

795C4F566F52443D0 wrote:

I agree with that even more :P

Do you need any other information?

I'd love to know more about previous accusations of cheating on MKSC if anyone knows about it -- I've looked through all the posts that so much as mention him and found a little bit, but if there is more than that, I'd like to know. I'm also looking for any MKSC vids he might have.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Nicola on 07/22/12 at 16:37:09

He made many videos, I remember watching some of them. I don't know where they are now, nor I know where to find more about accusations against him... other people surely know better.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Shock on 07/22/12 at 16:39:47

Hahaae, do you still have that link that shows him racing with SC? Like the one where he landed the BL SC 3/3 and I think MC was also in there... I remember you showing it to me once and thinking "there's no way that's legit." They were all pretty pixel tight runs.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 16:42:20

I guess I'll put this out here:

Mushroom cup
http://www.nicovideo.jp.am/watch/sm3485917

Flower cup
http://www.nicovideo.jp.am/watch/sm3486123

Lightning cup
http://www.nicovideo.jp.am/watch/sm3486262

Star cup
http://www.nicovideo.jp.am/watch/sm3486408

Special cup
http://www.nicovideo.jp.am/watch/sm3486497

Watch his driving carefully and decide for yourself. I will point out that on some tracks, what he has done 3/3, nobody else has ever done 2/3.

Examples:
- Riverside Park SC 3lap: 0'17"51. 2nd Worldwide is 0'20"45 by [ch12490][ch12460][ch12516][ch12510]. Same technique.
- Ribbon Road SC 3lap: 0'26"30 (3/3 SC). 2nd Worldwide is 0'40"70 by Ryou (1/3 SC).
- Broken Pier SC 3lap: 0'09"85 (3/3 SC). This almost beats Fried's TAS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piH6LSFV4U8) and 2nd Worldwide is 0'12"80 by [ch12490][ch12460][ch12516][ch12510] (the only other 3/3 SC run).

Let's not forget his crazy 0'05"83 RDP1 SC 5lap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvVdCW8tyw) (which neither Ryou or I have even been able to get 2 consecutive laps with this technique).

Decide for yourselves.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Shock on 07/22/12 at 17:15:48

I took a look again at the video of Mander's RR with April

First moment of shroom going into lap 2:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg839/scaled.php?server=839&filename=1fullscreencapture72220.jpg&res=landing
Notice how aggressive his line is; he nearly falls off or hits the bricks. Misses by pixels at most:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg690/scaled.php?server=690&filename=1fullscreencapture72220.jpg&res=landing
He hops here, while simultaneously starting to straighten up a little:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg801/scaled.php?server=801&filename=1fullscreencapture72220.jpg&res=landing
Straightened up into a line heading right for the bumper. This is all happening in a very short amount of time:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg40/scaled.php?server=40&filename=1fullscreencapture72220.jpg&res=landing
Starts turning to the right again:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg577/scaled.php?server=577&filename=1fullscreencapture72220.jpg&res=landing
In a very few frames before hitting the bumper, he seems practically in the same plane as it:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg59/scaled.php?server=59&filename=1fullscreencapture72220.jpg&res=landing

I submit these screenshots as evidence of potential TAS savestate usage on his RR 3-lap. The line is aggressive as you can see; he nearly falls off to the right before reaching the hop. The shroom is used before the effects of the boosters wear off. The hop itself is far back on the road, and it even appears that he straightens up immediately after hopping before turning to the right again a couple frames later. In my view, that's a likely savestate used right at the hop.

I also stick to the argument that he is a known cheater who is good at covering his tracks. His times cannot be trusted as legitimate on this site, and that's what matters most.

Submitted as my $.02, April. :P

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Etch on 07/22/12 at 17:45:50

It sure would be interesting to analyze the inputs during zzmt's.

Like mkw, the rate becomes borderline robotic precision.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/22/12 at 19:44:15

I'm sure his old ZZMT runs were done with the keyboard. They aren't consistent with quickly going left-right on a DPad, but you can ZZMT in a straight line easily with a keyboard.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Tom1 on 07/22/12 at 23:24:46

I agree also with Ethan that his zzmt looked like keyboard entry but that's just visible assumption.

After the fenner stuff surely the community should ban people on all sites.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/22/12 at 23:57:44

3636365E0 wrote:

Let's not forget his crazy 0'05"83 RDP1 SC 5lap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsvVdCW8tyw) (which neither Ryou or I have even been able to get 2 consecutive laps with this technique).

This video is recorded on a real GBA SP screen, and i dont see how to put a replay of a GBA track on the cart (but i may miss something), so it must be done on the GBA itself.

About his old ZZMT times i'm pretty sure he did them with PC + keyboard for the same reason: the video quality WAS perfect (not a camera, just plain bitmap recording).
As far as I know he played them in real time (but on one can know it for sure) using keyboard to get ZZMTS then someone (likely Su and others Japaneses) banned the use of PC. In my opinion the way he was getting ZZMT shows that he was playing in real time (his wiggling is human doable). If any cheat was used in his old (and deleted) times then it was savestate.

About RR, his line are aggressive? Not a surprise, since it was the WR, the first jump requires a frame precision timing as far as I remenber but many trusted players got it 3/3.
What always impressed me of his RR time was the ending of the last lap:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg13/scaled.php?server=13&filename=93103132.jpg&res=landing

ah.. and BTW, top japanese player does not like to be in #2 or worst position, so i'm sure it's not a problem to delete his time form our site...

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/23/12 at 00:21:20

Ah, where can I find proof of MKWII cheats?
I read some topics on mkwii section unsuccessfully

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by KVD on 07/23/12 at 00:27:41

http://www.mariokart64.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1341762836/475

Here is the proof that Mander has cheated. They basically downloaded his WR ghost on a certain track and extracted the button input of the file using some hacking. This demonstrated without a doubt that he used rapidfire, as the button input that was detected way above what's humanly possible (something like 1 input every frame). Read the entire topic for the specifics if you want.

This is quite the relief I must say. Many of us were suspecting him of cheating all this time, but we could never be quite sure without evidence. All we had to go on were gut feeling and his lack to communicate and provide adequate replies in the face of probing questions...but this could also have been due to the language barrier. Now we know it wasn't.

According to some posts I read in the MKWii section Mander is technically very skilled and very motivated to keep on fooling the community with extensive efforts; putting a TAS replay on the GBA would most likely be within the range of his possiblities.

Either way, he has been caught a 100% on MKWii, so we need not even be concerned with the real truth of his MKSC times. Like Tom said, the bans from the MKWii section should automatically be taken over by all other kart sites for all the cheaters busted. No mercy.

EDIT: Would that make you the SC Champion than Ethan? If so, you were denied credit for far too long and I salute you as the one and only deserving World Champ of MKSC SC. :D

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/23/12 at 01:51:20

I see soemone accusing him of tasing, but the only proof available shows he's using autofire.
People should know that autofire is legit to use in many arcade competition in Japan (machine owners build a configurable autofire for the champions).

I'm not defendig Mander beyond any limit, BTW.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/23/12 at 03:06:52

Rapidfire is a banned hack in MKW though. You have to hack your Wii to use it.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/23/12 at 03:33:20

Something like modding GBA or SNES controller to get ZZMTs:
http://www.acidmods.com/forum/index.php/topic,24956.0.html?PHPSESSID=5d188a756c9310384316360e8d5e9cfe

Maybe he has not interest in MKWII player page's rules (infact he's not in the ranking).

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/23/12 at 03:40:33

No, it's not like modding a controller for ZZMT's. You literally have to get codes on the Wii with Homebrew for Rapid Fire to work lol.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/23/12 at 03:44:11

Well the link i gave shows that it's possible to mod the controller, BTW i dont think this is relevant: if rapidfire is forbidden then it is in any way you can obtain it.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by KVD on 07/23/12 at 03:45:19

The worst part about it is that people have asked him if he used rapid fire (because he got 11/12 lucky wheelies in one run for example). He denied this and simply removed the video. Now his denial is proven to be false. This makes him untrustworthy/cheater.

If someone asked me if I modded my GBA for ZZMT, I would not deny it, knowing it was a legit thing to do in my community. Similarly, if the Japanese community allows for rapid fire, he wouldn't have a reason to deny it, yet he did just that.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Mick on 07/23/12 at 03:47:45

39283F20221D2421382E2E224D0 wrote:

Well the link i gave show that is possible to mod the controller

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by KVD on 07/23/12 at 03:50:36

Saved stating isn't though.

He did beat a rapidfire assisted run with a non-rapidfire run, which (to beat the rapidfire-assisted run) had to be so clean, that it bordered on the impossible. The history was that someone suggested he had used rapidfire to get those lucky wheelies, after which he simply removed that run and posted a better one later, without rapidfire/luck wheelies, but borderline impossible perfection otherwise. keeping in mind the circumstancial evidence that's building now, I'd say it's not farfetched that he was using another method of cheating to get that record (i.e. saved states/slow down/whatever...considering he hacked his Wii for rapidfire, all is possible beyond that point).

That said, this is of course speculation / educated guessing, based on the info we have. The fact that he used rapidfire (and hacked his Wii to get it) is 100%.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by JimboXD on 07/23/12 at 04:00:47

67414451466D5B475C5D05340 wrote:

[quote author=39283F20221D2421382E2E224D0 link=1342997736/25#29 date=1343043851]Well the link i gave show that is possible to mod the controller

Modifying the controller is also bannable on MKWii anyway. But I kind of agree Japanese players tend to play by their own rules, so I wouldn't be surprised if rapidfire is considered legit over there.[/quote]

Mander also considered rapid fire as not legit. The RF Acid situation (which happened after his MH times were set) proves this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NZGRoJ0sWw

But yeah, the situation is closed now, solid proof is a wonderful thing.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/23/12 at 10:51:31

4665616E6354480C0 wrote:

Mander also considered rapid fire as not legit. The RF Acid situation (which happened after his MH times were set) proves this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NZGRoJ0sWw

But yeah, the situation is closed now, solid proof is a wonderful thing.

This is the ultimate argument in my opinion.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Detective Spril on 07/24/12 at 09:13:01

Okay...

From what I have read, both in this topic and other previous topics regarding Mander (including the current MKWii topic), and after looking at Shock's post about the potential for savestates (actually, I came to him with that vid because I thought something was off about it), I think we can probably conclude that the possibility of him cheating here is pretty good, and considering he was removed from the MKWii site for something similar, I think it's safe to say he needs to be removed at this point.

If he would like to come to me with proof beyond a reasonable doubt, he is more than welcome to, but for now, we cannot trust his times, so they need to go. This topic will be left open for now, although anyone is welcome to PM me about this if need be.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Michael F on 07/25/12 at 11:44:39

Now that Mander can't be trusted anymore, can someone post an updated list of shortcut WRs with Mander's WRs removed?

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by KVD on 07/25/12 at 11:55:51

^This. Ethan? :D

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by F@nt0m@s on 07/25/12 at 12:11:10

I might have some more WRs then? :-/

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/25/12 at 14:55:03

163238333A3E37041D29323E3F5B0 wrote:

Now that Mander can't be trusted anymore, can someone post an updated list of shortcut WRs with Mander's WRs removed?

This will take a bit, but I'm on it.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by .Hahaae on 07/25/12 at 16:07:54

PC.....0'41"93 USA-Fenner(B)..............11"40 USA-Hahaae(L)
SGB....0'11"08 JPN-[ch27743][ch23798] [ch32724][ch22826](T)............02"36 NOR-SR(T)
RP.....0'20"45 JPN-[ch12490][ch12460][ch12516][ch12510](T)...............03"10 JPN-Yatakoba(T)
BC1....0'39"08 USA-Hahaae(B)............10"88 USA-Hahaae(B)

MC.....0'50"15 USA-Hahaae(B).............13"50 ITA-termoPilucco(L)
BL.....0'59"10 JPN-[ch12507][ch12540][ch12512][ch12521][ch12531](T).............17"49 JPN-Su(T)
CL.....0'01"96 JPN-[ch12495][ch12516][ch12502][ch12469](T)...............00"03 JPN-Yatakoba(T)
BC2....0'57"48 JPN-Su(B)....................17"30 JPN-Su(B)

LC.....1'02"93 USA-Shock(B)................18"75 USA-Fenner(B)
SG.....0'07"38 JPN-ryou(T)...................01"09 USA-Hahaae(T)
CCI....0'11"18 JPN-ryou(T)..................02"62 JPN-N.K.(T)
SW.....0'59"63 JPN-Su(B).....................18"02 USA-Shock(B)

SL.....0'59"63 USA-Fenner(B)................17"72 USA-Shock(B)
RiR....0'40"70 JPN-ryou(T).....................09"10 JPN-ryou(T)
YD.....0'34"40 JPN-Su(B).......................08"88 JPN-Su(B)
BC3....1'05"51 USA-Fenner(B)...............19"02 USA-Hahaae(B)

LP.....0'21"48 JPN-[ch12490][ch12460][ch12516][ch12510](T)..................02"43 UK-SimonC(P)
BP.....0'12"80 JPN-[ch12490][ch12460][ch12516][ch12510](T)..................01"63 FRA-Fantomas(T)
BC4....1'29"75 JPN-Su(L).......................27"26 JPN-Su(L)
RaR....0'34"53 GER-Stellmacher(B).........10"32 GER-Stellmacher(B)

Extra Tracks:

MC1....0'42"70 USA-Fenner(B).................05"98 ITA-termoPilucco(L)
DP1....0'13"06 USA-Hahaae(T).................00"93 FIN-Emp91(T)
GV1....0'37"93 USA-Hahaae(T).................04"74 USA-Hahaae(T)
BC1....1'09"80 JPN-Su(B).........................12"05 FRA-Kartseven(B)

MC2....0'38"05 JPN-Su(T).........................02"85 USA-Hahaae(T)
CI1....0'05"66 JPN-Su(T)..........................00"03 USA-RockMFR(T)
GV2....0'38"53 USA-Hahaae(T).................04"67 JPN-Su(T)
DP2....0'57"95 JPN-Su(D).........................07"56 USA-Hahaae(D)

BC2....1'22"43 JPN-Su(B).........................14"66 GER-Wild(B)
MC3....1'09"30 JPN-Su(T).........................11"25 USA-Hahaae(T)
KB1....0'07"41 USA-Hahaae(T)..................00"96 USA-Hahaae(T)
CI2....0'06"93 JPN-Su(T)..........................00"03 USA-RockMFR(T)

VL1....0'37"88 USA-Fenner(B)...................04"86 FRA-Smolen(B)
BC3....1'12"78 JPN-Su(B).........................12"55 JPN-N.K.(B)
MC4....0'10"10 JPN-ryou(T).......................00"19 USA-Hahaae(T)
DP3....0'15"61 JPN-ryou(T).......................00"21 USA-Hahaae(T)

KB2....0'12"83 JPN-ryou(T).......................01"02 FIN-Emp91(T)
GV3....0'05"36 FIN-Emp91(T)....................00"03 USA-Hahaae(T)
VL2....0'21"76 FRA-Lefevre(B)...................02"40 USA-Hahaae(T)
RR.....0'47"83 USA-Hahaae(T)...................05"14 FRA-Fantomas(T)

Changes are highlighted.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Tom1 on 07/26/12 at 01:57:36

thanks ethan

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by F@nt0m@s on 07/26/12 at 09:33:59

Noooo! :'(
Not even one more WR... [smiley=lurk.gif]

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Mario86 on 07/26/12 at 09:48:07

Quote:

BP [...] ...........01"63 FRA-Fantomas(T)

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by KartSeven on 07/26/12 at 09:52:12

437867707D20282820110 wrote:

Noooo! :'(
Not even one more WR... [smiley=lurk.gif]

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Michael F on 07/26/12 at 10:27:31

Thanks for the updated chart.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by Match_Race_De_La_Father on 07/27/12 at 01:28:27

How did Fenner get way down to 41" on PC :o

Havent seen these records for a while, most of the SCs are crazy anyway.

Title: Re: Mander caught cheating on MKW
Post by termoPilucco on 07/27/12 at 02:14:04

There is a video
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBsGL4-ssqQ[/media]
and he's even using the wrong strat, in my opinion ;D